Why This Was a Good Draft
I know many of you are enraged about the draft, even I was. But when you take time to really look at the picks and think about they can be used, this was actually a very successful draft and it tells you what kind of team Oakland will be this year. So let's calm down and make some logic on these picks.
1st. round: Darrius Heyward-Bey, WR
Heyward-Bey at #7 may have been a reach, yes, but this was in reality the best pick for us. Heyward-Bey is ungodly fast, we all know that. He's faster than nearly every corner in the league and has the moves to get separation and to get yards after the catch. In Ted Tollner's system, this is a must. Tollner is a downfield passing guy, which has historically been the raiders philosophy. But over the last few years, we've never had that one guy who's always blazing a trail downfield. Heyward-bey gives us that. True he is inconsistent catching the ball, but if he catches one of those 60-yard bombs we have a touchdown. That instant score threat then in turn causes the opposing defense to focus on him more. This then opens things up with some HB Draw plays and passes underneath to the RB and TE. And if the D blitzes then they can get beat big time.
Now i know everyone is saying, "but Crabtree was there!" yes he was, but he would not have been the right pick for our system. Crabtree is more of a possession guy, and while that would be very nice to have, he doesn't fit our system and isn't that threat that the D has to respect downfield. There's also no telling whether or not Crabtree's injury may have lasting effects or not.
Back to Bey; Bey shares the two common qualities of all of our draft picks. Potential, and great work-ethic. He has the work-ethic to be there working with the coaches to reach that great potential to improve on his catching consistency.
This was a system pick and a good one at that.
Pick Grade: B+
2nd. Round: Mike Mitchell, S
Okay when he's the face of the Ohio University football program, you know you've got a special player. Mitchell is one of the hardest hitting safeties in this year's draft. if you don't believe me, check this highlight video of him. He's very fast with a 4.43 forty and uses that speed to go from side line to sideline to make a play. I watched a couple Ohio football games and no matter where the play was, Mitchell was near it or making the stop.
I compare Mitchell to Sean Taylor. He's fast, good in coverage, (still a little shaky but better than what Wilson was) and lays a gruesome hit. I have noticed though that he tries to lay a big hit rather than a sure tackle, which does lead to some missed or sloppy tackles. However, for the most part, he's a great tackler. Definitely better than any of our other options at SS. That's not to say Mitchell will be playing strong though. Seems Cable like Branch for the spot and Mitchell is more than talented enough to start at FS. That interchangeability (big word) makes him that much better of a pick. Mitchell also shares a quality of Brian Dawkins. Leadership. And you can never have enough leadership on your defense. Also worth noting that he can play either zone or man defense very well.
Great pick to round off the secondary.
Pick grade: A
3rd. round: Matt Shaughnessy, DE
Not exactly a fast guy with a 4.85 forty, but it's good for his size at 6-5, 266. He's a solid tackler with 60 tackles, 18 for loss, and 5 sacks in a stellar junior season. During spring football last year he broke his fibula and needed suregery, and therefore didn't impress his senior year. Durability is a definite concern. He's fast, strong, and has good motor. He is, however, often blocked by a single lineman and isn't a real threat on the edge if he's held up off the snap. But he's a hard-worker and should get plenty of help from Board to work on his pass rush.
Plus he has a hilarious interview you know?
Pick grade: C
Round 4: Louis Murphy, WR
via heismanbrasil.files.wordpress.com
I know what you're thinking, another speedy receiver. I've heard others call him another higgins, which seems to be a bad thing. But is it really? Thin about it, Higgins should not only start at WR this year, but he's also starting at punt returner. With his thin frame, that could mean injuries. Enter murphy. Murphy is nearly identical to higgins and would be invaluable should Johnnie Lee "Blue-Suede Shoes" Higgins get injured. I know he came fro ma spread, but Florida was more of a pro-style, spread mix. Murphy had to run all your basic pro-style routes from a spread. Of all the spread receivers in the draft, he's one of the best and most polished route runners. Inconsistent in the passing game yes, but he's also one of those hard-workers. Worth noting he was a team captain. Also with that speed, he give us some of the same things Heyward-Bey does.
Pick grade: B
Round 4: Slade Norris, OLB/DE
At 6-2, 236, Norris isn't all that big for a LB (he would be the smallest one if he should start) and won't see much time unless he bulks up. However, as a blitzer in Marshall's system, he's invaluable. So much speed and that small size allows him to easily maneuver around O-Linemen and squeeze through holes in the O-Line to make plays behind the line or sack the QB. As a DE in college, he put up 58 tackles, 18.5 for loss, and 10 sacks. Can also play DE if that's what Oakland wants. The Raiders can really do whatever they want with him. Use him as a situational LB blitzer, quick DE off the edge, or bulk him up for more than just blitzing. They could also work on his pass coverage to make him a 3rd. down specialist. If Oakland develops him right, Norris could be the anti-passing SLB as a coverage man and blitzer.
Plus how sweet is the name Slade Norris?
Pick grade: C+
Round 6: Stryker Sulak, DE
via www.columbiamissourian.com
The one thing that sticks out about Stryker (other than that amazing name) is his amazing forced fumble count. NCAA-leading 6 forced fumbles last year. When he makes the hit he tries to knock it out. If he can get us a couple of those, that could make a huge difference in a game. Stryker also excels at penetration. 55 tackles, 15.5 for loss, and 10.5 sacks. It seems like Marshall's defense will be one that prides itself on getting into the backfield consistently. Not just plugging the holes, but going through them for some TFL's. Stryker is fast (4.69 forty) and is a real edge threat in the passing game. Shares the weakness of Shaughnessy of being held up by a single blocker. Can also play some LB.
Pick Grade: B
Round 6: Brandon Myers, TE
via pictopia.com
Athletic, physical TE. 6-4, 250 frame makes him a great blocker, which will be key in our two-TE packages. His blocking ability also allows Miller to make more plays in the passing game, instead of being an extra blocker. Myers himself can also do some damage on pass plays. He uses his big frame and wingspan to grab the errant passes. Not very fast or elusive, but he's not expected to be. More of a run blocker, he still does well pass blocking.
Pick Grade: B+
Overall draft grade: B
1 recs |
91 comments
Comments
I Like Bey
He was the first pick and I am electric about seeing him with J-Mac.
Police Fucking Hate Me, Trying To Relocate Me To LA, But Like The Raiders, I' ma Bring It Back To The Bay! - Nump
by Rayder K on Apr 27, 2009 2:44 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I Like Bey too
But I’m more anxious to see how Tyvon and Mitchell will do together.
Who Wants It More?
by nishal26 on Apr 27, 2009 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i voted
mitchell also. that video got me all pumped up
Stang PRIDE!!!!!!!!!
by Robby1987 on Apr 27, 2009 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
hitman mitchell
i like him there in the backfield , mitchell in back , nambdi and cj on both sides five deucey and thomas howard in the middle the pass d is just getting better , i can`t wait to see that # 10 draft pick go thru the middle in front of mitchell
by RAIDERS1976 on Apr 27, 2009 10:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i like bey too
can`t wait to see just how well he will fit in mcfadden , russell , jlh , bush, fargus, even louis murphey , crabtree might have screwed it all up with his attitude , those forty whiner fans need to check last i remember there last couple of wr picks (jj stokes )and a couple of others first rounders where are they now
by RAIDERS1976 on Apr 27, 2009 9:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We need a general manager!
Just look at the picks over the past 6 years of pain. We should have built a dominating team, but we waste picks and sign lazy unmotivated free agents to absurd contracts. We all love Al, but it’s time to hire a football mind to build this proud franchise back to glory.
by NJRaider75 on May 1, 2009 6:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Giving an “A” to Michael Mitchell is absolutely ludicrous. It was a total and complete failure of a pick as this guy wasn’t on anyone’s mock at any point at all during the draft except for maybe Mike Mayock’s, and that was in the last few rounds at the earliest. I am not buying this “Bears were ready to take him at 49” crap. Picking Slade Norris was an absolute joke as well. We would’ve been better off taking even Zack Follett that high compared to Norris.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Apr 27, 2009 4:23 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
mock drafts...
ok dude i dont understand why u keep riding the mock draft experts balls?
if they are soo fucking good at their jobs why r they not in the nfl as scouts?
lay off dude. mock drafts dont mean shit period. Mitchell said it himself that the bears were gnna take him and the chicago tribune reported it…why would they make that up? also word has it that the cowboys wanted him aswell.
Stang PRIDE!!!!!!!!!
by Robby1987 on Apr 27, 2009 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You had never even heard of Michael Mitchell until the Raiders drafted him. This site watches one highlight video and they think Michael Mitchell is the next big thing? Also, I watch Pac-10 football and I had never even heard of Slade Norris. Those experts aren’t scouts, but they know what they’re talking about most of the time and they won’t nail every pick, but they break down hours and hours of tape and talk to people associated with those players. Don’t be biased and a homer. Just because they picked them doesn’t mean I have to like it.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Apr 27, 2009 4:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
actually
I’d heard of mike mitchell a long time ago. I watched two Ohio games this year (OSU and Central michigan) I’ve even seen him in person (Central michigan game) and he is definitely worth the pick. Plus we were even talking about him before now if you check some of our mocks or some of the comments.
Don’t say we’ve never heard of these people when there’s a lot of us who have.
V- "I'm not questioning your powers of observation. I'm merely remarking on the paradox of asking a masked man who he is."
by KA1Z3R on Apr 27, 2009 5:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You had never even heard of Michael Mitchell until the Raiders drafted him.
I never said that you hadn’t heard of him. I said that Robby hadn’t which is why it was a direct reply to him.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Apr 27, 2009 5:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
you are right… i didnt hear much about him until that report came out a few weeks ago that the raiders were enamored with him.
fact is im not an NFL scout. i have in no way shape or form said i know more than a scout or mel kiper or todd mcdouche know. all im saying is the raider scouts KNEW about him obviously.
also i havnt said hes guranteed to be the next big thing have I?
dude honestly you can bitch moan and cry alll you want, but the fact remains that we wont know jackshit until tthese guys step on the field and play.
be mad now sure, what more can you do? Id be lying to you if i said i wasnt upset with the DHB pick. I was shocked and pretty much throughout the whole first round i didnt say a word cuz of my shock and anger. Ive made peace with the fact that Crabtree didnt wanna play for oakland. Does that justify us drafting DHB at 7? nope…but it doesnt make a knock on him either. If anything we should have traded down to get more value out of the pick but we kno that Old Al does things his way.
You can be mad all you want…Honestly if you have nothing in your life more important to be worried about then i feel sorry for you bro. But fact remains we wont know anything until the season starts. Optimism is all we have to go with for now. Just like Niner fans are optimistic that Crabtree wont be the second coming of Charles Rogers. Be optimistic and you’ll find it alot more entertaining.
Stang PRIDE!!!!!!!!!
by Robby1987 on Apr 27, 2009 7:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know there’s nothing I can do, but I can express my displeasure.
Honestly if you have nothing in your life more important to be worried about then i feel sorry for you bro.
I have a 4.0 GPA right now, so there really isn’t anything else I have to worry about to be honest. The A’s better keep their bats goin’, though.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Apr 27, 2009 7:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
good shit
with a 4.0. what school do you go to?
and yeah i agree espically if the sharks falter we need the a’s to bring home a championship to the bay
Stang PRIDE!!!!!!!!!
by Robby1987 on Apr 27, 2009 8:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I go to Enochs High School. It was just built in 2006 and I’m a part of the first class that will attend the school for all four years which are the first four years.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Apr 27, 2009 9:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
BLOWIN' UP AFC FOOLS IN THE BLACK HOLE!
All I know is….mike mitchell is gonna drop DEPTH CHARGES on those AFC fools goin’ deep across the middle!!! BELIEVE DAT!!!
by Vlad3030 on Apr 27, 2009 4:46 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I'Ma be at that game so I better hear the hits from Mitchell.
Who Wants It More?
by nishal26 on Apr 27, 2009 5:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
better believe
Gates goin’ get leveled!!! Ha ha!!!
V- "I'm not questioning your powers of observation. I'm merely remarking on the paradox of asking a masked man who he is."
by KA1Z3R on Apr 27, 2009 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I personally voted Mitchell
He’ll be a star, I can just feel it.
V- "I'm not questioning your powers of observation. I'm merely remarking on the paradox of asking a masked man who he is."
by KA1Z3R on Apr 27, 2009 5:18 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
lol no votes for Shaughnessy
you know?
V- "I'm not questioning your powers of observation. I'm merely remarking on the paradox of asking a masked man who he is."
by KA1Z3R on Apr 27, 2009 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Same here
He was a great steal at first I was like OK another average S that we drafted but, I saw him on you tube and he looked dam good. I love that in a football player. The other 31 teams I hope you have your medical insurance when you play the Raiders I can see at least five injuries caused by him.
Who Wants It More?
by nishal26 on Apr 27, 2009 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like the potential
of DHB and Mitchell but I’m not going to dub them great picks (yet). I Like their drive, heart, the fact they are hard workers and wan’t to prove the critics wrong. They both seem selfless and team players from there interviews. So I’m remaining optimistic about these 2. The level of competition is much higher than they are used to so they will need to work hard.
I would liked to have drafted Sidbury over Shaughnessy Murphy was a good value but not needed would have liked a DT. Norris could have been a FA pick up. Meyers is a good pick too it will free up Miller allowing him to be a bigger weapon. And Stryker I like as well.
the good thing is they are all work-horses
by S-n-B4life on Apr 27, 2009 5:36 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I would liked to have drafted Sidbury over Shaughnessy Murphy was a good value but not needed would have liked a DT. Norris could have been a FA pick up.
I totally agree with that and the defensive tackle should’ve been Jean-Francois from LSU.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Apr 27, 2009 5:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
or Terrance taylor
who was on the board for what seemed like forever
V- "I'm not questioning your powers of observation. I'm merely remarking on the paradox of asking a masked man who he is."
by KA1Z3R on Apr 27, 2009 5:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We should have gone with a defensive end at 124 instead of Murphy, Taylor or Jean-Francois at 126 instead of Norris and then instead of Sulak at 199, we should have gone with Follett.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Apr 27, 2009 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
shaughnessy, and norris
should have been changed. everything else was fine with me.
V- "I'm not questioning your powers of observation. I'm merely remarking on the paradox of asking a masked man who he is."
by KA1Z3R on Apr 27, 2009 6:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jean-Francois
is a guy i reallly wanted..i cant believe he fell to the 7th round and the niners snagged him lol.
if he works on his work ethic he can become what he was projected a few years back.
Stang PRIDE!!!!!!!!!
by Robby1987 on Apr 27, 2009 7:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
THE BEY NINJA AND THE 34MM MISSLE( don't know what mike mitchell's number will be)
…but I’ll use 34 for now. These are the nicknames i’m givin the NEW members of the Raider family.
“THE BEY NINJA” – Did anyone SEE the demenour on Bey’s face during the draft…and THEN the "DOOSY CULVER interveiw? nuff said.
“THE 34MM MISSLE” – YOU KNOW MM is WAITIN" 2 BLOW UP HATERS when the season starts. ALL THAT MAD SHIT ABOUT HIM BEING SPEWED ON DRAFT DAY? LOAD HIM UP TOM!!! FULL METAL JACKET!!!!
by Vlad3030 on Apr 27, 2009 5:56 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
digging the names
my nickname for Bey was “The Bey Area Ballistic” cause he flies like a bullet.
V- "I'm not questioning your powers of observation. I'm merely remarking on the paradox of asking a masked man who he is."
by KA1Z3R on Apr 27, 2009 6:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ON THE SAME PAGE KA1Z3R...
I like "The Bey Area Ballistic too. We BOTH recognize the quality in “THE BEY”!!!! EITHER WITH BULLETS OR NINJA STARS… BEY GONNA WORK IT OUT!
by Vlad3030 on Apr 27, 2009 6:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
hell yeah bro
=D
V- "I'm not questioning your powers of observation. I'm merely remarking on the paradox of asking a masked man who he is."
by KA1Z3R on Apr 27, 2009 6:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
btw
nice post Kaizer.
Stang PRIDE!!!!!!!!!
by Robby1987 on Apr 27, 2009 7:50 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
this was a good draft
they saw something that we didn`t been a raiders fan since 76 , did you forget raiders till i die , raider nation faithful
by RAIDERS1976 on Apr 27, 2009 10:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Great post kaz!
And I agree, I’m excited too. Still alot of work to do, but we can win our divison.
"May the wind be at our back, here comes the Silver and Black "
by RUKidding on Apr 28, 2009 4:24 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
over the last few days i have been accused
by many people of drinking the Kool-aid and some have even said i may have an intravenous kool-aid drip going on but I also think that we have the POTENTIAL to win the division. Dont get me wrong a lot of things have to go right but it seems to me that Coach Cable is really building something special if not next year (most likely not next year) then in the near future.
"Mel Kiper has his opinion and I respect it. But what does it mean? My 9-year-old nephew can watch film and make an opinion. I think I value the opinion of scouts who get paid to make their opinions. It will carry me through my career. It will serve as motivation for me." - Mike Mitchell
by Ozraider on Apr 28, 2009 4:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
so what your saying....
is that why we will be paying bey #7 type money, to be a decoy. yes he is fast, but we already have other fast guys. chaz and jlh are almost as fast. If we want a decoy so that we can open up the middle for zack and dmac, then why didnt we keep lelie?
We know that dhb doenst catch a lot of balls. So if he catches 1 maybe 2 deep balls, does he really scare the opposing def into keeping a deep safety? Troy williamson was another guy with blazing speed and he did no such thing.
Everyone is saying we dont have a deep threat. but we do, all of our receivers are fast. duh, al davis doesnt go for anything else. What we dont have is a reciever who can catch 75+ balls a year. Crabtree could have been that guy.
by gl12ox05 on Apr 28, 2009 11:18 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
With DHB
now the deep threat I think Chaz at 6’4 225 will be the possession receiver for more intermediate routes he runs decent routes and is fearless. His numbers will double this year at the least.
I don’t think they drafted him 7th to be just a decoy. He’ll bust some big ones, he’s on a mission to prove all the critics wrong. Will he be worth the money this year I don’t think so, but he’s an investment that we hope we will be. (like everyplayer drafted in the 1st)
Need to sign Aaron Kelly (6’5 205)in FA good hands and red Zone target. He is worth a look!
by S-n-B4life on Apr 28, 2009 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
so your still saying....
is that we dont have a receiver who will catch 75+ balls. All of our receivers can run. You say chaz’s number will at least double. That depends on JR and it cant be that hard with the # of balls he caught last year.
You say he is an investment. That is an expensive investment. Especially when all of the reports (and his college stats) are saying all he is, is fast and not much of a receiver. If it were crabtree and he turns into a bust, we blame crabtree for not being able to excel at the next level. If DHB is a bust, we blame davis because EVERYONE except davis knew DHB couldnt make it at this level.
Heres another thing. I have watched the Raiders since 83. The only pro bowl receivers I can remember are tim brown and jerry rice. tim brown was a college stud. Everyone already knew Jerry rice could run precise routes and could catch the ball. Other than that, Davis has always drafted speed and we never had a pro bowl receiver since….
by gl12ox05 on Apr 28, 2009 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reallistically
we are mainly a running team now but, I think Cable wants to throw more to balance out our offense. I think several WR’s Chaz, DHB, JLH, Walker and even Miller, DMac and Busch will be catching more passes this year whether any of them catch 75+ who knows and who cares. Any one of the WR can get 75+ catches its only 4-5 catches a game. As long as we win games I Don’t care. and It actually depends more on the offensive scheme and play calling than it does on our Receivers. We need to keep the D of balance.
by S-n-B4life on Apr 28, 2009 6:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
who cares?
we need the passing game to keep opposing defenses honest. we need that receiver who can catch 75+ balls to give confidence to JR. There are times the qb will throw the ball up to his go to receiver expecting the receiver to make a play. young qbs dont make that throw without a go to guy. that gut who catches 75+ balls is the guy that gets double teamed and opens up the field by having the safety drift to him.
If all we do is run, we turn into the minn vikings. put 10 in the box with no repect to the passing game. Our scheme calls for running the ball, because we cant pass it right now.
by gl12ox05 on Apr 29, 2009 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
even if we would have drafted Crabtree, witch i know is your whole thing.
would that have really been the differnce between the raiders being a good team vs a bad team?… because i dont think so. It would have been great to have him, but we still would have had the same owner. and the same team.
I'm gametime_gsw, and i aprove this message.
by gametime_gsw on Apr 29, 2009 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually no....
Yes my pick was crabtree. but thats not what made me so mad. Its the fact that we wasted the value of the #7 pick.
So I agree with you that Al Davis would still figure out a way to screw up this team.
by gl12ox05 on Apr 29, 2009 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The difference between us and the vikings...
is A.Peterson is a beast and way better than any of our RB’s plus they have a solid o-line which we don’t have yet. That’s what is impressive about the Vikings because everybody knows their going to run and stack the box and they still can’t stop them. If the Vikings ever get a passing game, they will be the team to beat.
by kawelu on Apr 29, 2009 9:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
thats my point...
they were able to win a few games because of the strength of their running game and OL. But they didnt win the biggest prize of all. in fact, they didnt even make a dent in the playoffs. Minn is ready to win now, had they had a decent passing game. A passing game to keep the defenses honest.
Our team is not the minn vikings but as of now, we arent to far behind them, we run on offense and try to play defense. Get JR that guy he can rely on when he throws the ball will keep teams honest. That will allow our running game to get that much better.
by gl12ox05 on Apr 30, 2009 9:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay gl12, if that's the case...
then I still feel we got the wrong guy in DHB. Like you said, we need a possession WR who going to be J.Russell’s security blanket and go to guy. Someone to give us the 75+ catches and DHB is not built to do that. Maybe he’s going to stretch the field for us but we’re lucky if he’s going to give us 50 catches. We should have got Ramses Barden as that guy as he was the biggest(6-6) and is known for snatching the ball out of the air. He was also ranked as the best blocking WR which we would need to help the running game.
by kawelu on Apr 30, 2009 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i agree..
DHB was the worst thing we could have done. We will be paying DHB #7 type money to catch 40 balls and 4 tds a year. According to Cable, he will stretch the field “making everyone else better”. I am reading that as a glorified decoy (especially at 40 rec and 4 tds a year.)
I know I wanted crabtree, but if we were going to pass on him, at #7 I would have rather gone your route and picked defensive or an OL…..anything but DHB.
by gl12ox05 on May 1, 2009 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We have alot of DHB fans here but...
they have to realize a couple things first. How well Russell going to do is how well the o-line does first. How well DHB is going to do is how well Russell going to do. It’s a chain effect so if the o-line isn’t solid then all our skill positions are going to suffer with DHB being the worst. That why I don’t understand why we never addressed the o-line as the main priority (besides d-line) through the draft with cable’s back round being an o-line coach. He should know how important this area is to have any success and he’s giving in to al’s obsession with speed. I know we brought in some FA OL but if they couldn’t hack it on another team then why are they going to do it on ours.
by kawelu on May 3, 2009 4:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
good point but none of our recievers are good at being a deep threat…higgins is too small..and chaz is slow off the line and doesnt out physical ppl for the ball..not to mention he doesnt seperate from people like dhb does..with dhb there you will see an immediate increase in the amount of balls chaz and higgens catches..not to mention it will take a safety out of the box for the running game
by pablopaul25 on Apr 28, 2009 11:23 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
dont have to be big to be a deep threat...
steve smith is not tall and he is a deep threat.
Why is everyone saying DHB will make everyone else better? To do that he has to be good. he has to command double and triple coverages. Just because he is fast dosnt mean he will do that. he needs to be a 7+ rec/gm, 100+ yd/gm, 1 td/gm receiver. Anything else, doesnt scare anybody.
by gl12ox05 on Apr 28, 2009 2:07 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't understand that either...
when cable says that DHB will make everybody better. Hopefully, coach sanjay can help him get better as far as consistently catching the ball and better route running but I don’t know. Like I said in another post, now is NOT the time to learn how to run better routes and catch the ball if your a WR. If you haven’t learned how to do that after playing in pop warner, high school and college then either you are a real slow learner or you have no business in the NFL where the best players are.
by kawelu on Apr 28, 2009 6:52 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
the thing is DHB started playing football very late
and from what i have read the fact he has progressed so quickly when only playing the game for a short period of time leads them to believe he has only just started to tap his real potential and will continue to progress at a very fast rate
"Mel Kiper has his opinion and I respect it. But what does it mean? My 9-year-old nephew can watch film and make an opinion. I think I value the opinion of scouts who get paid to make their opinions. It will carry me through my career. It will serve as motivation for me." - Mike Mitchell
by Ozraider on Apr 29, 2009 6:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
for all of our sakes...
lets hope that happens.
but he was still a waste of the #7 pick. We in turn will be spending too much money on him. We could have spent less money on him or gotten additional draft picks by picking him later on.
by gl12ox05 on Apr 29, 2009 9:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
he did demand double teams in college actually but because he was the only decent player on his team..they couldnt get him the ball enough…look i was all for crabtree but he didnt want to be a raider…and dont compare anyone in this draft class to steve smith…when ronde barber says their are only 2 recievers you have to change your defense for steve smith and randy moss you know hes a freak..and to say someone needs to be a 100 yard 7 catch 1 td a game player is stupid…do you realize thats 100 catches 1600 yards and 16 tds…yea good luck with getting that out of any recievers in this class..or consistantly out of any player in the league…as a rookie i see him ending up getting 900 yards..but 900 productive yards with alot of big plays..thats what you need from him..thats how he will make the football team better immediatly
by pablopaul25 on May 1, 2009 3:18 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
DHB getting 900 yards his rookie year is whats stupid.
He barely broke 900 yards in two years at maryland. Talk about getting the ball to him enough, do you really think JR will do any better? especially when we lead off with our run game.
As for the type of receiver we need, i was just using averages. 100 catches, 1600 yds, 16 td isnt impossible, see moss/rice/owens etc. but I meant a guy who can catch 75+ balls and break 1000 yds (10 tds a year would be nice).
No one knows if crabree did or didnt want to be a raider. all he said was “no comment.” Maybe the raiders already told him they werent going to pick him.
So you want a guy who will catch 45 balls for 900 yds?? That will make our team better??? You want THAT guy from the #7 pick in the ENTIRE draft? You realize we are going to give that guy 21 million dollars guaranteed? JLH and Lelie were close to averaging 20 yds/catch. To command double teams in the NFL, you need to put up better numbers than 45/900. Just because you run fast wont command double teams (see troy williamson).
I am tired of hearing everyone is a freak. Steve smith is a freak….Calvin Johnson is a freak….. blah blah… DHB ran a 4.3 he is a freak. Either your good or your not.
by gl12ox05 on May 1, 2009 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
you cant tell how good someone will be in the nfl..its a gamble either way..dude you obviously dont know much about football..andre johnson, fitz and brayon avgd 60 catches and 900 yards in their first years starting..for a rookie those are good numbers and impact numbers seeing as all of them avg 14 yards a catch..do you think they didnt have an impact on their teams?…no one is calling dhb a freak he is a young reciever that hasnt even been playing football as long as most and he still made it to this high level….and you think russell wont be able to get him the ball?…i think ill take russell over turner..and regardless of whether we are a run first team we can still get good passing numbers…if you dont know anything about football dont post
by pablopaul25 on May 1, 2009 5:18 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Look who's talking....
You are talking about 3 guys who are pro bowlers in the NFL. How many rookie WR’s were drafted in that time span?? 3 GUYS!!! Sure expert….. You really think DHB is going to put up 60 catches and 900 yards his rookie year??? He never did that in ONE year at maryland.
Apparently you dont understand much about football. The only reason DHB was drafted this high was because of Al’s hard on for speed. (see also the 2nd rnd pick). Also, I said 45 balls for 900 yards….not 60 catches. If DHB catches 60+ balls for 900 yrds and averages that over his career…. I will take that.
but I am talking about the entire economics of this pick pablo (rookie) paul. Since I am looking at what DHB has done so far, the reason we drafted him, and the amount of money we are commited to him, this pick was a joke.
DHB, can turn into a pro bowler, anyone can. No one is argueing, we dont know how the future is going to turn out.
However, i dont think anyone will argue that the reason we drafted DHB is to stretch the field. we want him to command the coverage of a deep safety and a cb. Well unless that guy does get 60+ catches for 900 yards (as you say)… he wont command those double teams. And since he has never gotten close to those numbers in his career… I am a doubter. He may pan out, but he is a risky investment that we paid too much for. We could have gotten him cheaper and used the money elsewhere.
Also, our leading reciever only caught 56 balls last year. the second leadind receiver only caught 29 balls. Where are these extra 60+ receptions going to come from??? We are all of a sudden going to become a passing team? Russell is all of a sudden put up 500+ passes with a completion rate of 60%. please….rome wasnt built in a year.
lastly, learn how to hit the reply button if you are going to post…rookie.
by gl12ox05 on May 4, 2009 8:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
no need to reply
dude your funny..firstly if he grabbed 45 balls for 900 yards that would be better than 60 for 900…he would be avging 20 yards a reception..and you think he wouldnt be double because of that..thats idiotic..do your math..secondly yes you can say that he never caught that much in college but he never had a good offense or qb..if you look up the stats gram harrell threw almost twice as many balls as turner and had double as many comletions so if you DO YOUR MATH AGAIN! on the average percentage that a ball was completed to heyward bey, he would have had 82 receptions 1200 yrds and 10 tds if his qb completed that many balls with about a 15 ypc avg..and thats on his bum team too who knows what he could have did in a spread offense..and your right russell didnt complete alot of balls last year..kinda might be the reason why we were dead last in passing and in the bottom of the league in total offense and 3rd down conversions…when we start staying on the feild longer his numbers will get better and we will have a reciever that can get 900 yrds..and i dont mean to put you down but do your math bro 45 catches 900 yrds and he wouldnt be doubled…laughable
by pablopaul25 on May 4, 2009 2:45 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Good Argument
Pablo.
J-Mac got arm, D-Mac is unique, DHB got the hands, and he can move his feet.
Niners got Hill, he is really cheap, now they got Crabtree, hey don't fall asleep.
by Rayder K on May 4, 2009 9:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
thats 3 catches a game!!
Why would any secondary be scared of a guy who catches 3 balls a game? Plus when someone catches 45 balls for 900 yards, i was being generous, someone probably wont average those 20 yards, but i was giving you the benefit of the doubt. If DHB caught 45 balls, his numbers will probably look like his college numbers. On a per game basis, thats 3 balls for 57 yards. Again, why would a secondary double that?? Maybe thats why our offense is so woeful, you are the offensive cordinator thinking opposing defenses will double that guy who catches 3 balls a game.
So what your saying is….. WHEN JR gets better (and I am with you on this that I am hoping that he does), then DHB MIGHT put up numbers that he has never come close to in his entire life? Thats a lot of IFs to put on the #7 pick. And your saying, IF maryland had thrown twice as much, DHB would have doubled his stats? The problem is……. THEY DIDNT. DHB was their only offense and he only scored 5 tds. If he is sooooo good on a bad team he should still have a nose for the endzone. how many ko or punt returns did he have?
I like your imaginary thinking though. Hey, dont get me wrong, all of these woulda shoulda couldas would be nice. I would worry about the guys who score tds, get the touches of the balls, and consistantly get first downs. Not the guy who touches the ball once per qtr for maybe a 20 yard gain, who might only score in 30% of his games. yeah….REAL SCARY.
by gl12ox05 on May 5, 2009 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the funny thing is everything is an if..you can throw out crabtrees, maclin, and harvins stats in a sense because no one knows how they will do in a pro style offense…and no one knows how dhb will do in a more productive offense with a way better qb..drafting is only projecting what somone should be able to do in the nfl..you have the most film of a pro type reciever in dhb. I mean i should tell you that the nfl has more games than college as well..i dont know like i said its all about projections..i mean i was hyped up about crabtree but then i had to look back at the other tt wrs..joel filani on 06 91 catches 1300 yards and 13 tds after a 100 yrd year before…04 haverty and hicks over 75 catches and 1000 yrds each..who are they?…so yes crabtree has proven that he was the best tt reciever but all of those players stats are inflated..and im not sure but none have done anything in the league…while dhbs stats are deflated..he i believe is in the top 5 wrs in school history in three years..but the kicker is dhb just projects better into our vertical offense
by pablopaul25 on May 5, 2009 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
good point on past tt receivers...
I dont know who those guys are and how they have translated into the NFL either. They could be a product of the system or the qb. Crabtree could be a product of both. Who knows…
But I think we still disagree that DHB projects better into our verticla offense. Yes he may be the guy to go vertical but thats just based on his speed. Nothing else. we dont know if he is a vertical receiver because he just hasnt done it very often. Maryland didnt throw very often and the fact that he only caught 40+ balls for 5 tds means he didnt really succeed at it very often when they did do it. (that is unless maryland went deep 7 times to dhb and DHB caught 5 of them for tds.)
Add that to the fact that last year, we werent very good at going vertical either. So if all they want is DHB to run straight 40 yards, whether its to be a decoy, try to get a safety and a cb to double, or really try to get the ball deep to him doesnt really make a whole lot of sense at #7. Especially when he just has never done it before. Thats a lot of risk when we will be paying him #7 type money and we could have gotten him later on for a lot less.
by gl12ox05 on May 5, 2009 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think it might have been possible to get him later but i dont think he would have been there past 20..not to mention there is no one who wanted to trade into the number 7 spot for any of the players there..that being said dhb did prove he was a vertical threat in college by avg 15 yrds a catch over his career he has several 30+ catches on his limited oppotunities, 94 yrd catch against miami and i believe another 50+ yrder in that game…he was constantly doubled too which is something that stats dont show but highlights do on youtube a catch over alphonso smith and chip vaughn overtop(two pretty good college players for wf)..where as a player like maclin and crabtree are really hard to double in their systems because of where they line up and the fact that the passes they caught were usually under 10 yards..i think people underplay the value of a solid qb as well especially in a vertical system with vertical recievers…if you dont have a guy who can put the ball on the recievers accurately the recievers stats will not be as good.
in the end i would have liked to see us trade out and take dhb later but the reality is who knows if he would have been there..there were several teams that wanted him later in the draft. so we took walshs advice and got our guy when we had the chance and i also believe it would have been a big mistake to draft crabtree to be a vertical reciever (to me he is a poor mans boldin)… so unless we were going to change our whole system for a player i like us making the statement of getting dhb at 7
by pablopaul25 on May 6, 2009 5:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
you cant tell me we couldnt move down...
cleveland did it all draft long, ne did it again, and they do it every year. The opportunity is always there. Even if it was a couple spots down and for a 5th rounder. I agree he would have gone right around the 20th pick. but thats a $10 mill signing bonus difference…
Plus, DHB said himself that he didnt think Davis or his staff cared if they could have gotten him at 15. He was the player they wanted and just picked him. (see yahoo team report 5/4/09) Short sightedness.
As you said, he had limited opportunities (ie. not many plays). And at an avg of 15 yards, we have other receivers who averaged that.
I am not arguing the value of good qb (good qbs can make good receivers, and vice versa). but at this stage JR is no different than the qb at maryland (im not talking skill wise, but team concept wise). We run first and pass second. Of course we are all hoping that he gets better, but he is the reason we are a running team. Assuming JR keeps progressing, then yes DHB has the opportunity to get better numbers.
Again at #7, we are paying a lot for a guy who never put up stellar numbers in college and will be going into somewhat the same situation he was at in maryland. maryland = run first to set up pass, DHB only offensive weapon. Raiders = run first to set up pass (until JR can show he can be effective passer), DHB NOT only offensive weapon. Since he wont be the only weapon and going into the same concept, I cant imagine his stats are going to be any better than when he was in college. Maybe a little bit because of 3 extra games, but those games can also be the ones he didnt even register a catch.
I am not saying crabtree will be better, but for what we saw of him on film….and as you said of his receptions of under 10 yards, i thought he was a better fit for JR. As you said before, we want our offense to stay on the field more. I felt crabtree would help with the plays that we need 3-10 yards because of the higher comp % of those plays and his yac. Thus giving JR confidence whenever throwing to him. Thats why he was my choice.
by gl12ox05 on May 6, 2009 8:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i dont know i disagree i think theres a good possiblity we couldnt have traded out of that spot..the browns traded out for mark sanchez a qb alot of teams thought was better than sttafford after that at our pick no one is going to trade up for raji orakpo crabtree tell me what team do you think would have traded up and for who?..no one wants to pay the money..i feel alot of teams felt the same way the raiders did that crabtree was a possession reciever..we already have possession recievers on the team (chaz, walker, higgins)..you can train ppl to be possession recievers..mike furrey 98 catches for the lions a couple years back….even look at the giants and the way their offense worked they pounded the ball threw to steve smith on third downs (3-10 yrds) and threw over top to plax..patriots moss over top welker underneath…i could go on but every team has that…and i understand you with the run to set up pass thing but that still dont think just because you run the ball you cant pass for that much..even the best running teams passed for 3100 yrds last year..and like i said before crabtree cant be the best fit of russel because hes not the best fit for the style of offense we run..we dont run a west coast short passing offense..we do exactly what cable said we run it then throw it over your head..so why would we take crabtree who would end up running routes that our second reciever or slot receivers would be running..and thats no knock on crabtree because jerry rice make his career of those west coast short passing routes slants quickouts and what not but thats not the raiders style..to be honest i wouldnt be surprised if you see chaz or higgins get more receptions that dhb..but dhb will get the ones that really hurt the defense those 20+ yarders
by pablopaul25 on May 6, 2009 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
.
Cable said himself that Davis or his staff didnt care to trade. They just wanted DHB and went after him. Thats part of the problem.
How do you know Chaz and higgins are possession receivers?? (you may know this more than i) but jlh yards per catch was exactly what you were looking for out of DHB. We both know that both receivers are fast. That leaves Walker as our possession and we dont even know if he is servicable anymore.
You listed moss, but he is also that receiver I was talking about before, he averages 80+ ctaches a year and 1200+ yards 10+ tds. He can go over the top as well as underneath.
Plaxico doesnt have the same numbers, but he also can go underneath. but the bottom line is you have a possession receiver and the better receiver who can do both. Moss and plaxico command double teams because A) of their stats, they have done it before B) they can beat you deep c) they can beat you short.
We had moss when we changed offense from west coast to vertical. K collins can throw the deep ball as well as anyone. How did that work out? (i know i know, our ol was trash, but collins did get throws out)
yes we are vertical, but we arent just going to throw bombs everytime we throw the ball. We will have plenty of 3rd and 5 or 3rd and 10 plays. Crabtree would have been a good fit for those routes (probably better receiver than walker,chaz, or JLH). We had Lelie last year, whos specialty is running long routes. how did that work out? he didnt command double teams. basically we are replacing lelie with DHB.
I think you are right, chaz, higgins or walker will get more catches. dhb will probably get a few 20 yarders, but 1 or 2 a game will not scare any defenses.
by gl12ox05 on May 7, 2009 9:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
one or two 20+ yarders a game wont scare any defenses..the league lead was 23 20+ yrd receptions for the season..as a matter of fact that list starts with steve smith 23, jenning 21, calvin 21, fitz and andre johnson w/ 20…all guys who demand safeties be aware of them…dhb reminds me of a faster version of roddy white who had 18 20+ers(same type of prospect coming out of college fast they said he had inconsistant hands..his stats were better but he played at uab who doesnt play anyone)…ZACH MILLER actually led all tight ends with 16….and obviously your not going to run him deep every play i mean thats obvious…who said dhb cant go underneath hes a nightmare for any corner to have to cover on a quick slant or drag route…he took a quick slant 50+ yards for the score against vt…as for all this speed that chaz and jlh have..they dont have dhb speed..chaz is slow off the line he has to build up speed and jlh is too small every corner in the league is bigger than him and he gets bullied in the secondary he will be a nice slot option like welker…and your right it didnt quite work out with moss like we would have liked to but he was still our last 1000 yrd receiver with a horrible line..and i understand what you mean about crabtree being good for those shorter routes..but really anyone who gets off the line well and has great hands is good for those yardages ex. welker, steve smith (giants), mike furrey a couple years back with the lions was that guy..so dont tell me we need to spend a #7 pick on a guy to do that..like i said i think jlh can be that guy..not to mention we have a pretty good tight end..i believe dhb can be that guy who even as a rookie can get 12 or 13 20+ yard catches and make teams respect him…and i never said he would be doubled (paid more attention to) right away but i expect somewhere down the line this season he will be
by pablopaul25 on May 7, 2009 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
.
All of the guys you listed, smith, jennings, calvin are pro bowlers who get those stats that I was talking about (80+ rec, 1200 yds), and you are comparing DHB to R white, he was another project but he was drafted 27th (about the same where DHB should have gone not #7).
DHB’s route running is labeled “very raw”, so his underneath routes will need work and time to get better. Something crabtree would be better at day one. no receiver is too small, as S Smith does just fine.
and we all know what moss can do but his two worst seasons were with us…a vertical team (cant blame it all on the OL).
As for great hands, thats another one for Crabtree (and why i wanted him), outside of walker, we dont have another receiver who has been labeled to have good hands. Our receivers have had plenty of drops. Crabtree is another one who has been labeled as consistant hands. Where as DHB is labeled “lacks great hands”. Right now, we dont have a welker or a moss. And right now it seems A Davis wants to use DHB as a lelie/harper/gault type of receiver.
YOU never said he would be doubled, but Cable said that he would make everyone better…meaning he would command a safety to drift or line up farther back because of DHB. If DHB doesnt produce, then the safety wont care where he is lined up. He needs to put up the numbers you mentioned before, moss, smith, johnson, etc.
by gl12ox05 on May 8, 2009 8:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
everyone is a project..some less than others..so your telling me if you knew the type of reciever all those guys would have been they wouldnt have benn drafted alot higher..it doesnt matter where you draft a guy as long as he produces..and please dont compare any small reciever in the league to steve smith..who is a running back with elite reciever skills..jlh doesnt come close to having the type of strength, jumping ability, hands, physicality and toughness that steve smith has…your whole arguement about dhb is the same arguement people made about andre johnson coming out as well..inconsistant with his catching..relies too much on his talents needs to run better routes.look how that turned out for the texans..and i think now he is a top 3 reciever in the league…i mean i know dhb isnt as physical as andre johnson but hes not soft by any means..everything you talk about you can be taught to do better dhb hands arent great but they are good and will get better..hes already a solid route runner but he’ll get better…the upside on crabtree is alot less obviously because he doesnt have as much athletism..in the end i think they will both be good but we got the right guy for our system.
Reading is fundamental..i never said he would be doubled or paid more attention to RIGHT AWAY..but after a couple plays of corners getting beat he will get his respect corners will give up trying to press him and safeties will be aware of what hes doing and help overtop occasionally..like they do to any legit reciever with big play ability.
You think crabtree has big play ability like dhb?
by pablopaul25 on May 8, 2009 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
you keep coming up with excuses...
cant compare s smith, cant compare c johnson. etc etc….
bottom line is based on everything that has come out publicly. this was not a good pick for us at #7. I am not talking about what draft experts have said.
DHB may become a pro bowler…eventually. But right now, his skills were rated like R white, and we could have gotten him later on in the 1st. We dont know what the circumstances would have been, because Cable said they didnt care, they wanted him and took him. they could have saved $10 mill and perhaps gotten another draft pick.
Now you talk about staying on the field longer. In order to do that, we need more first downs. that can happen by converting more 3rd downs at 3-10 yards. Something Crabtree would be batter than DHB right now.
So your saying DHB wont be doubled or paid more attention to RIGHT AWAY. The only way he does get doubled or paid attention to is if he puts up #s like the receivers you mentioned…moss, smith, jennings, fitz, etc. If he puts up the same #s he put up in college, he doesnt scare anyone.
I know you are going to say well he played at maryland. Well again, your saying “what if” as opposed to what he has already done. And again, thats another reason thats quite a reach at #7. You would rather have the closest thing to a sure thing than a project and a reach with the #7 overall.
You asked do i think crabtree has more big play ability than DHB? I think right now he does. I think Crabtree’s big play ability comes after the catch and getting into the endzone. I think DHB’s strength is getting down field, something the raiders are not that good at right now, nor has DHB shown he can do consistantly (and again, i dont care how you spin it 40 catches, 900 yrds, 5 tds is not good enough.)
Lastly, and just to repeat myself, both you and I hope that DHB becomes a pro bowler. If he does, then great, A Davis proved me wrong, but that doesnt deny the fact that we overpaid for him by $10 mill (and again, we dont even know what we could have gotten, because A Davis didnt even try).
by gl12ox05 on May 11, 2009 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
way too much to read..the bottom line is they didnt want crabtree..crabtree didnt want to be a raider..and you got the player you wanted..who cares how much you have to pay him..crabtree isnt a vertical threat we run a vertical offense and we needed one guy to streth the feild we got him..i asked before who would trade up to our spot and you havent answered because its simple no one would…we had to pick at 7 and we got the guy we wanted..even if miraculously someone traded up and we traded down what happens if he was gone?..then we would look dumb having to settle for another player who wasnt the guy we wanted and dont say that he would have been there because there were several teams interested in him..and you dont know where people will go in the draft ex. tyson jackson #3 when 2 weeks before the draft he was a mid to late round pick.. .crabtree doesnt have the big play ability of heyward bey after the catch hes not shifty he doesnt make ppl miss and hes not as big and strong as he was once thought to be so how is he better after the catch and you say he knows how to get into the endzone..who doesnt in the tt offense which i thought we established with the other recievers stats..you see crabtree get hawked in his highlight tape..thats pretty bad…and in the offense that we will run it isnt important that our number 1 guy move the chains on third down..thats what you have a great te and slot receiver for..not to mention dmac or bush out the back feild or in the slot which they have been lining up dmac there lately…as i stated ealrer there is a value to recievers who can stretch the feild that possesion recievers dont have..there arent nearly as many guys who can stretch the feild as there are to run the short to intermediate routes
by pablopaul25 on May 11, 2009 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
do you really know how football is played?
I answered all of your questions:
It doesnt matter who would have traded up because we didnt even try. Cable is QUOTED as saying they just went and got DHB, they didnt care about other scenario’s. Thats just being stubborn and irrational.
We didnt want crabtree, fine. We go with another player who is a need and has more of a chance at being a sure thing than a reach or a decoy to try and stretch the field.
Who cares that we overpaid for him? are you serious thats $10 mill that can go into a free agent starter.
Crabtree isnt shifty??? apparently you havent watched him. He is the best after the catch reciever that is coming out.
It isnt important for our #1 guy to move the chains?? uh I would say its the most important thing besides actually scoring. If our #1 guy is the guy to do it, so be it.
There is value to receivers who can CONSISTANTLY stretch the field ala Moss, smith, c johnson, not those who only get 40 catches and 5 touchdowns.
Try again..
by gl12ox05 on May 12, 2009 8:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only thing
that saves your argument is if DHB becomes a pro bowler. Even if that does happen, we overpaid for him up front.
(and to repeat, we could have moved back, but CABLE is QUOTED as not even trying to. except for the niners, picks through 18 didnt really need a wr)
by gl12ox05 on May 12, 2009 8:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ok but even if we were taking calls to move back there was no one willing to move up period.
and the only thing that saves my arguement is if dhb becomes a probowler and the only thing that saves yours is if crabtree does..so whats your point?..the draft is never a sure thing to begin with..both recievers were projected first round recievers we took the one we thought best fit our system..if both players end up reaching their potential we ended up getting the better player and all the analysts would agree dude…so get over it. AND you think crabtree is the best run after the catch reciever in the draft? harvin, maclin, and dhb arent better than him..do you know football?
dhb was feared in college and doubled in a pro style offense not in the spread..your right though tell..steve smith, chad johnson, t.o., reggie wayne, marvin harrison, and andre johnson they suck…because none of them had more than 60 catches or more than 10 tds thier last years in school..out of this list i think (and Sports News Mag)hes mostly like chad 33 receptions 6 tds last year of school..not bad for a guy who had 6 straight 1000 yrd reception years..and was arguably a top 5 reciever during that time…college proves nothing bro nfl is a different game..no 4 or 5 wide sets every play on offense..lastly i guarente you if you look it up on third down conversions the ball is caught more by a tight end running back or secondary receiver more than the number 1 guy.. giants, colts, steelers (how big has heath miller been for them), patriots welker, i dont need to go on i dont think
by pablopaul25 on May 12, 2009 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
60 catches 10 tds???
thats almost 20 more receptions and double the number of TDs of DHB. Plus, as you said, there are more NFL games than College. Chad Johnson may have caught 33 rec….THATS WHY HE WAS DRAFTED IN THE 2ND ROUND. SMITH and OWENS 3rd round, Wayne 30th pick overall, A Johnson was 3rd overall but he SCORED 15 tds. Harrison picked 19th but had 56 rec, 1131 yds and 8 tds.
I dont care about crabtree. My point, other than trading down if we abolutely had to have DHB, is that at #7 you want a need guy who will be the closest thing to a sure thing ie, raji, monroe, etc. What your telling me is IF DHB had a good offense or a qb that his stats would have been better. That right there is a reach. The other top 10 guys dominated their positions by stats and physical abilities.
And the reason most experts had crabtree rated ahead of the other receivers IS because of his yards after the catch,TD making ability, and route running. Not because of his hands, speed, kick returns, or size. Why do you think he was rated so high?
As for 3rd down conversion, who is to say crabtree isnt a welker? I would also be willing to bet the guy who got the most 3rd down conversions didnt have 15+ yrds per reception either.
Anything else?
by gl12ox05 on May 13, 2009 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the only point that im trying to make and i think ive made is that you cant just look at dhbs stats and judge him..i agree with cable that in a spread offense like tt florida or mizzu dhbs stats would look alot better…i dont think there can be an arguement there..dhb is definitely better than the previous recievers from tt who have very good stats as well. to me it doesnt matter where a guy is taken as long as he shows the potential to produce in your system which i feel dhb does..i also feel crabtree will do well in the 49er system where he will be able to run similiar shallow routes like he ran in college as soon as they find a solid qb..and you can disagree with the pick but taking a guy who in my and experts minds is the best deep threat reciever in the draft was a smart move on my part..we will see how it works out.
i heard al wanted to take colston in the third round of his draft and was talked out of it and you know ppl would have been saying the same thing you are now
and your probably the only person in the world that thinks crabtree was the best after the catch..i think most definitely he would be behind at least harvin and maclin and some believe dhb as well..his routes were good but not nfl routes..i mean i had my doubts about him and obviously teams did too thats why he went 10 when scouts had him as the highest or second highest rated prospect..i mean team after team passed on him..and as far as your welker question if crabtree does turn out to be a welker which he wont cuz hes not as quick but if he does im super glad we passed on him because welker is no better then a good number 2 reciever and we need a number 1 guy dhb is that guy
by pablopaul25 on May 13, 2009 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ok, your saying DHB is the best deep threat receiver in the draft and thats what we wanted. I am not going to argue there.
What pisses me off is that we took a risk receiver at #7. you say that if DHB played at TT his numbers would have been higher. But we dont know that. All we really know about this guy is he runs a 4.3. To me, it does matter where a guy is drafted. With all of the dollars floating around, it is extremely important to make sure you get the best value for the spot you are picking. I look at the model NE does every year. They basically trade the #1 away and always have a boat load of #2’s. That way they arent paying $30 mill guar for a bust. (a #2 is still a good player at a much cheaper price). Al Davis, didnt even bother to look into moving down to still get DHB. Thats the crime. We save $10 mill and/or get extra draft picks. That $10 mil could be used for another player.
Taking someone in the 3rd round is more acceptable than in the 1st. Yes Colston turned out pretty good. Even if A Davis was a genius and knew something everyone else didnt, had al taken him first when we could have gotten him in the third or as a UFA would have been the mistake. The mistake is that he would have overpaid for him. Im not saying mitchel is as big of a mistake as some experts think.
Look, Crabtree may not be THE BEST after the catch, but that was in response to your quote of him not being “shifty and doesnt make people miss”. My point is that his after the catch skills is one of the reasons why he was ranked as one of the top prospects (and top WR).
The only reason crabtrees stock dropped is mainly due to character. Not ability.
I think we all would be happy if DHB puts up the stats welker puts up.
by gl12ox05 on May 14, 2009 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
you can be upset we took a “risk reciever” numbr 7..but how many lock recievers end up sucking at the next level..mike williams. rogers, koren robinson, david tyrell, regie williams. all YOU know is that he ran a 4.3 forty..before he even went to the combine he was rated a late 1st early second round pick…you can see his speed and playmaking ability all over his highlights not to mention the respect teams gave him if you saw him play in any games.
Were not ne, colts, steelers, we are not fortunate enough to not have needs so we can just pick whoever, best player available, we had a need for a deep threat to match our strong armed qb..i look at things from a coaches perspective and we needed that guy..its like a basketball team we have bunch of shooters but we need a big man to draw attention and give our shooters open shots.
And you keep talking about your frustration about us not wanting to move down but there were no offers bro..no one trades up into the top 10 anymore unless its for a qb..so let it go.
your harping on overpaying him when if turns out to be what we hope and you took him later hed just hold out after 2 years and get paid at that point more than hes getting paid now. so dont focus on the money..the raiders obviously dont care after the money and cap hit with hall and wilson.
and if your right and his character is an issue why would you want him on the TEAM..were done with those type players..
dhb wont put up welker numbers because hes not a 100+ reception a yr person..not to mention hes actually going to be a number 1 optioin not the other guy lined up across from randy moss
by pablopaul25 on May 14, 2009 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
how many lock recievers end up sucking at the next level???
Thats exactly why we should have moved down and paid him less. Im not saying this guy wouldnt have been drafted. just not at #1-#18.
NE, Colts and Steelers draft smart! Thats why they can do what they do. We dont, ie this years draft.
WR was not the only position of need. We could use help on defense and on the OL. So we didnt HAVE to go WR. As we argued before, unless DHB puts up pro bowler stats, he would be more like shawn bradley (not great college numbers but a physical freak).
as for moving down, you dont know that there werent any offers. With Crabtree on the board, SF, NYG, PHIL might not want to move down?? You cant tell me nobody moves down when NE does it every year, and cle did it this year. You cant tell me there werent any offers, because A DAVIS didnt listen to any. That was a quote. That in itself, no matter how you try to spin it is the FACT and part of the problem.
As for holding out, thats the point. We want that to happen. He gets paid down the road for performing, not before. and for the raiders not caring about the money and cap hits, that is also part of my point. That is why since our last sb we have been the laughing stock, losing rec and drafting top 10.
Do you really think crabtree has character issues? Cleveland started those rumors and got blasted by Crabtree’s ex coach. Some of our fans thought he dissed us just because he said “no comment.” Thats it.
As for welker, all I’m saying is if he puts up stats close to welker or moss, for that matter, we would be happy.
Anything else?
by gl12ox05 on May 15, 2009 9:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
1. i think it would have been bad to move down past 15 thats the area where anything could have happened.
2. and its easy to draft good when your not drafting in the top 10 timmons pit, gonzalez colts (no one was critical of them taking a number 3 wr (eventual #2) when they have needed dt for years, they draft to their strengths), and merriweather pats, didnt have start there first 2 years in the league..and even when players have to play they are coached correctly and not asked to do too much..they were put into good systems which i believe has been the problem with our team we havent had a direction in the past but it starts this year.
3. We drafted our biggest need which wasnt dt or oline..if you scratch walker who only had 1 1000 yrd reception year(why did he get that contract), our recievers where scrubs whose teams didnt want them and higgins and low round rookies..we got lineman to compete people forget oline is about consistancy the giants line is good because they have been together for so long now and they communicate well..dline will be coached better and will be fine. the offense needed a boost and they got that in dhb.
4. ive already said if people were as high as you are on crabtree he would have went before 10 since according to you ppl love to trade into the top 10 i guess.
5. you never want a hold out but i see what your saying..but the bottom line is drafting anyone anywhere in the first round can be looked at as overpaying..and if al davis wants to spend more money than he has to thats fine with me as long as he gets the first player he wants. and our drafts havent been bad at all..in the first round up until now we have taken who we were suppose to take early.
6. he doesnt have character issues but he doesnt have the all star attitude you want in a guy that your going to be paying that much money..who as a rookie has the right to say no comment when your asked about any team..you say the correct thing “its a great organization blah blah blah”..not even eli manning was dumb enough to say that about the chargers when he knew he wasnt going to play there and hes a qb.
7. i think depending on how good the offense is 7-800 yrds as a rookie could be fine as long as millers stats keep going up and chaz becomes a legite number 2 threat. as i said i think we will see mcfaden get alot of catches too so it should be fun
by pablopaul25 on May 15, 2009 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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1) I was just saying the area we could have moved was through 18 as it didnt seem they needed a wr. Backing up anywhere would have been better than #7.
2)Well then, another reason we should be dropping into the later parts of the draft. If we drafted to our strength, we wouldnt have drafted dhb at all. Are you telling me teams that stay at the end of the draft are always good?
3)I think you will find the great majority of fans who do not necessarily agree with what you claim is our biggest need. At this point and time, we have plenty of big needs. OL, Defense and WR are all equally our biggest need.
4) There were only a couple of teams in the top 10 who really needed a WR. Clev was a team that didnt seem to like his attitude. Al just wanted DHB. Thats more of why he dropped.
5) thats the problem. I like the fact that Al Davis is willing to open his pocketbook. But I wish he would do it with logic. Last years FA signings were all bunk. This years was good, as we upgraded areas for cheap. If they dont work out, we dont lose a grip of money.
6) uh no comment means no comment. EVERYONE has the right to say no comment. Maybe Crabtree already knew 100% that the raiders werent going to pick him. Who knows. instead of going the eli route, he just didnt say anything.
by gl12ox05 on May 19, 2009 8:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
18 is denver they wouldnt have traded with us..and 19 was where philly moved up to take maclin..and that would have been where dhb would have gone if we traded down that far. which i still believe no one was willing to trade up to our spot but whatever.
im saying and i said..its easy for your draft to look good when your not drafting in the top ten..my resons already explained
and i dont care what fans think was our biggest need..i know 10x as much about football as the “average fan” and i agree with the coaches and the players, aso went on espn and when asked about what we needed he said himself that we needed to get jamarcus weapons to throw to. i think he knows better than any of us.
teams that needed wr rams, browns, bengals, raiders, jags, 9ers. 6 of the top 10 teams so dont tell me not many teams needed a wr that early.
and he probably did know that the raiders werent going to pick him still no rookie when asked about an organization should say no comment..thats like sanchrz saying no comment about the lions..idiotic..it shows a cockiness that no rookie reciever should have
Like i said if both players reach their potentials we got the better player for our team. so im happy
by pablopaul25 on May 19, 2009 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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Denver wouldnt have taken a wr. so we could have moved to 19 before philly to take a wr.
You dont get criticized if you are picking at the end of the 1st round because those players are supposed to be more of a risk. Many of the teams that pick late pick the BPA (also filling a need position), ie colts with gonzalez who was meant to fill harrisons shoes.
hmmm that a bold statement about knowing 10x more football than “the average fan”, but whatever.
You could also ask anyone on the offense if they think we could use more defensive help to make our defense better. Plus, are you sure aso really didnt want crabtree?
um the rams, bengals, and jax need a t more than wr. cle got better value and after the visit with crabtree, passed on him. that leaves the niners which is exactly where he was drafted. Go to any niner sight, they are absolutely excited about drafting him.
No comment means exactly that. NO COMMENT. it doesnt show cockiness. it shows nothing.
no argument that i hope dhb becomes a pro bowler. But still, the fact is, the pick was not a good one at #7. It is no different than drafting janik in the 1st round. He was another reach for the first round when we could have gotten him 3 rounds later, but nooooo Al Davis had to have him thinking this will be the best kicker ever. He has been above average but we could have gotten another player with this pick and gotten janik later.
by gl12ox05 on May 20, 2009 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i see what your saying but once a player has proven themselves in the nfl it doesnt matter where they have been drafted..thats like if the bengals took chad in the first round everyone would have said it would have been a reach until he had 6 straight 1000 yrd years then ppl would have said yes chad is a top 10 draft pick..so you get your player when you can get him…you know how many times teams have traded down because they knew their player would be there and he wasnt…the raiders arent the only team that sees alot of potential in dhb. no one knows where dhb would have gone..and you cant say its not a good pick at 7 until you see the type of player dhb will be..he was projected a mid to late first round pick..we got him alittle earlier..so im just glad we got him
by pablopaul25 on May 20, 2009 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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I am not saying DHB wont be any good.
But lets use ocho as the example. he was drafted in the 2nd round. I know he was a headcase back in the college days thats why he kept bouncing around. So our picking DHB at #7 would be equivalant to cincy picking him with their #5 pick in the first round (or early first round pick). If cincy absolutely knew they had to have them, they could have traded down. If they had picked him #5 overall, they would have overpaid for him plus the baggage that comes with him. As it turns out he became a star and pro bowler. he got his big bucks after he performed, not before.
Look at janikowski. he actually became a good player for us. but everyone remembers what a waste of a pick he was.
We dont know how many teams move down just to miss out, because those teams never say. Imagine that, a team says “well we traded down so we could get this guy, but then we missed out on him.” No one admits to that. Plus in reality, the problem is that Al didnt even consider moving down.
We got DHB. Fine. I would have prefered Crabtree, but the raiders didnt want him, fine. dhb might turn out to be better player, i hope so. but bottom line is again, this was not a good pick at #7 in terms of value and dollars. These little things is the difference between Al Davis and teams like NE and Pitt.
by gl12ox05 on May 21, 2009 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
every rookie gets dollars before they performe though thats what your neglecting.. whether it was crabtree, monroe whoever they havent proven anything..and you can say crabtree proved himself in college which is true but he also didnt do any workouts or run this whole offseason which is a big evaluation tool for nfl teams especially with players that come out of systems that dont translate to the nfl. and if dhb pans out hes worth even more than you paid him there arent many recievers that open things up for a whole offense in the nfl if he becomes that guy hes worth the money and the pick..and you keep talking about moving down but you havent stated any scenarios where you think a specific team would want to move up and as i keep stating teams dont move up into the top 10 anymore for anything less than an potentially great qb which there was none at our pick..so whether al listened or not there were no suitors for the pick
by pablopaul25 on May 22, 2009 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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yes every rookie gets dollars but there is a rating system. The rating system is based on performance in college and the combine. Im not even talking about crabtree anymore, but he and monroe were expected to go much higher than DHB. Thats why they get more money and the expectations on these players are much greater.
DHB was not expected to go #7. Therefore we could have paid him less. Thats how we overpaid for him. If and when he becomes a probowler is when he should get the extra $10 mill guaranteed. Again, why are all the good teams money tied up in their best players??? all of our money is tied up in rookies like JR, DMAC, and soon to be DHB. Who havent done anything yet.
I have given you plenty of scenarios about moving down. all 18 of them. Did you not hear about the philly rumers. Add the NE and CLE examples, I think I made my point clear. Add to the fact that AL didnt even listen….you cant tell me that their werent any suitors.
Again no different than the janikowski pick.
by gl12ox05 on May 26, 2009 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
you make no sense you complain about money tied up in unproven players when it would be regardless..and you talk aobut rating systems yes.. but the fact is different teams have different rating systems how else would tyson jackson be a 3rd overall pick when right after the college season he was a projected 2nd rounder…like i said before monroe has knee issues..crabtree did not do any workouts or run for teams because of his injury..there is also another system in place you talk about teams wanting to trade up but the value of our pick to a philly or a new england is two first round picks or a first second and later round pick..so no team is going to be willing to give that up for any player in that spot…like i have said before i would have liked to trade down as well as long as i knew we would still get our guy but we got him and thats all that matters…every player especially 1st round rookie is overpaid..so your just saying you wished we overpaid someone else…and a wr projected in the mid to late 1st round is very different from a kicker
by pablopaul25 on May 26, 2009 6:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pablo and Gl12ox05
You guys need to give up whatever you are talking about and start putting some words in bold letters which means you have a title. It’s kinda getting annoying to look at Please.
Amazing, Jamarcus Russell hands off to McFadden who pitches it back to Russell who finds Darrius Heyward Bey in the Middle of the Field wide open 30, 20,10,5 Touchdown Raiders! Amazing. This telecast is Brought to you by Cable.
by nishal26 on May 26, 2009 10:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The time for questioning our picks....
has been and gone.
Mini Camp has just been and the season is a few short months away (still too far) and these guys are Raiders and we have to support them and FUCK WHAT ‘THEY’ SAY we gotta defend em, they raiders we raiders it’s US AGAINST THEM!!
"Mel Kiper has his opinion and I respect it. But what does it mean? My 9-year-old nephew can watch film and make an opinion. I think I value the opinion of scouts who get paid to make their opinions. It will carry me through my career. It will serve as motivation for me." - Mike Mitchell
by Ozraider on May 12, 2009 4:46 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

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