RAIDERNATION..May I have your attention please?!
by Petey14 on Aug 1, 2009 3:31 PM PDT
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PrintFirst and foremost, you can all hate my Red & Gold guts all you want. Just wanted to get some insight on what you guys think of your so-called football team. Haha okay I'm just kidding, basically, I want to know how the Raiders fans feel about what is going on with the team. So many questions..
First of all, whats up with JaMarcus? I heard that he reported to camp..out of shape..again. He admitted that hes "probably a little heavy...but not 300lbs like you all (the media) said last year" Theres a picture of him and old man Garcia next to each other. JaMarcus's gut is stickin out like a 40 year old beer belly, and Garcia's lookin trim and young..lookin like hes not a day over 30. So my real question about JaMarcus is how has he been in Camp? Is Garcia a real threat to his starting spot? I was really threatened when he was drafted but I knew it would take time for him to develop but this guy has some SERIOUS conditioning issues and a questionable attitude. Seems like hes taking his money and running with it. Anybody have any POSITIVE feedback on him?
Next subject, how do you all feel about DHB and passing up Crabtree and Maclin for him? I know Al Davis is in love with speed so I expected him to go for Maclin (living in MO, I would have hated seeing a Mizzou superstar like him in black & silver) but I never imagined he'd go after DHB. From what I have read, DHB is struggling to catch the ball in camp. Is that surprising? I'm not so sure that it is his nerves..the guy is more of a track guy/athlete than a football player. It may take him a couple of years to develop, IF he develops. WR's can be deceiving (see Detroit Lions past WR's drafted) So whats the deal with him?
3rd on the list - McFadden. Is this guy going to be #1 this year or what? What's going to happen with Fargas and Bush? Again, I was concerned when the Raiders drafted McFadden last year. McFadden AND JaMarcus? Man I expected the Raiders to BEAST but they proved that you can't do shit without a line. Is it true that the Raiders have bolstered their OL? What improvements were made? McFadden has more potential than anyone else on the team. Davis needs to build the OL, become a smashmouth running team, and let JaMarcus simply manage the game..much like Kerry Collins last year for the Titans. I can see the occasional rocket downfield since he has such a cannon but Im not so sure anyone can make a play on the ball.
Who in the world is Mitchell? I remember watching the draft and someone from ESPN said he had a list of the top 250 players in the draft and Mitchell was nowhere to be found. Not saying he cant play, he may be a true Gem, BUT why would Davis take him so high? From what I've read, nobody really knew who this kid was before he was called on draft day. I gotta admit, I was laughing my ass off watching Al Davis screw up time and time again but that was just too much. I did read here on S&BP that hes had a good camp thus far. Whats he like?
As far as the season goes, I cant wait to play the Raiders. I have several friendly rivalries here in KC with some Oakland fans. I can actually stand you all though. I absolutely HATE those donkey F'ers over there at MileHighReport. So I can safely say..I will root for the Raiders atleast twice this year.
Finally, what are your opinions on the AFC West? What about the Chiefs? I'm not really looking for smack talk..that can be done during the season..I just want real opinions from outsiders.
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So my real question about JaMarcus is how has he been in Camp?
Nothing much has been going on with Russell and camp. The Raiders have been hitting the books harder than they have been hitting the field. The real on-field stuff begins on Monday.
Is Garcia a real threat to his starting spot?
Eh, I highly doubt it. It would take a Russell injury.
Anybody have any POSITIVE feedback on him?
Russell played pretty well down the stretch last season.
Next subject, how do you all feel about DHB and passing up Crabtree and Maclin for him?
Heyward-Bey better start catching the ball. That’s how I feel about him. Crabtree didn’t want to play here and I guess since Maclin came from a spread offense, Mr. Davis wanted to go with someone that played in an offense that resembled a professional one.
Is this guy going to be #1 this year or what? What’s going to happen with Fargas and Bush?
McFadden should get the most touches on the team. Head coach Tom Cable said that the offense was better when McFadden was on the field. If he stayed healthy, the offense would’ve been noticeably better. As far as Bush and Fargas go, I guess there will be a battle in the preseason as to who gets to back up McFadden.
Is it true that the Raiders have bolstered their OL?
Getting rid of Kwame Harris was a huge step in the right direction. Another year of Cable teaching the guys is a great thing. They’ve been improving yearly and should take another step in the right direction this year. Mario Henderson should hold down that left tackle spot and make a name for himself this year around the entire league.
Not saying he cant play, he may be a true Gem, BUT why would Davis take him so high? … Whats he like?
The Bears were going to grab and they were picking just a few steps behind us, so we grabbed him before they could. He hits hard — really hard — and no one really has said anything about his overall tackling ability and his coverage skills.
Finally, what are your opinions on the AFC West? What about the Chiefs?
I think the Chargers will win the division by at least three games. I think the Chiefs and Broncos will battle it out to stay out of last place.
I think we will finish the season 7-9 as of right now.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Aug 1, 2009 3:59 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
agree with all
"You'll take my life but I'll take yours too. You'll fire you musket but I'll run you through. So when your waiting for the next attack. You'd better stand there's no turning back"- "The Trooper" by Iron Maiden
i give russel 8 weeks
if hes not performing ell stick jeff in and dhb better start catching the ball or else i will be pissed, again.
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "Your a rookie"
Where I'm from
This is pretty much snark and trolling.
"..what you mean? I'm a legend like Kareem!"
by CommittedToExcellence on Aug 2, 2009 12:07 AM PDT reply actions
Cute little chiefs fan, didn't your mama ever teach you...
not to throw stones from a glass Cassel- especially a cassel that you will be paying on for six years at 10 million a pop. At least he has a stud like Tony Gonzalez to throw to… oh wait, sorry about that. You always have the hope that Pioli brought his taping equipment with him.
I know there are questions about Jamarcus’s work ethic and dedication, if only all players could be Larry Johnsons.
No one had DHB slotted to be drafted that high, but let’s hope the teams know better than the experts, I know you will be. I don’t remember too many folks predicting Jackson to go 3rd.
Predictions for the AFC west are very difficult this year, as it should be a incredibly tight race for last between the Chiefs and Broncos.
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
...
Cassel-1 year franchise tender=14 Million this year alone-long term contract:28 million guarenteed in 6 years..bad decision? I think not.
Larry Johnson:Sure he has had a bad work ethic Ill give you that but one he has shown he can perform and stay in shape if he wants too and word is that he has came to his senses this year realizing that this is his last chance and is getting praised from hard nosed Todd Haley
Tyson Jackson-Your right he wasnt predicted to go at number 3 and Im sure KC wasnt wanting to take him that early but couldnt trade down-When you break it down we are turning to a 3-4 defense and Jackson was the best 3-4 DE in the draft(which was our biggest need) hell he wont get a lot of sacks but he will help out our defense this year
Prediction for the West: Broncos are a mess they finish last,Raiders still have Al Davis and are trying to make your team better with ex Chiefs(the team you hate so much) aka Will Franklin and Samie Parker,Chiefs are learning a new system and have a long road ahead of them still, Raiders and Chiefs battle for 3rd,San Diego wins a weak division
I think you may be confused as to how contracts work.
If Cassel plays six years with the Chiefs he gets 63 million dollars. The 28 million guaranteed is what he gets, when they decide to cut him, because he is not worth 63 million dollars. Roughly every year he plays with the Chiefs he is going to get 10 million. Does that change your thinking on the deal?
Larry Johnson is about to turn 30, that magic age when running backs really figure out how to succeed in the NFL, especially after they have just experienced a down year. I am actually thinking he will be a big reason why the Raiders defense will, at least, appear improved!
As for your cast-offs, well I don’t think they will make the squad, and baring a major injury crisis, they will not see the field. I am not going to start bragging about our WR’s, because there are certainly more questions than answers there, but thanks to the Chiefs WR’s I also do not think they are the worst in the division. You did get a good veteran addition to go with all the youth, in Bobby Engram and the term veteran has never been used so appropriately, the guy is an old 34.
You never know how things will turn out in an NFL season but I for one am glad the Raiders get to play the Chiefs twice this year.
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
by Rich Langford on Aug 2, 2009 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Ok your right on the contract I was a little confused Ill give you that
and exactly you dont know how good a team will be until you see them in action hell the raiders may go undefeated for all I know..and to tell you the truth I think if Franklin can get in shape he is a burner and could make your squad and you guys would have a lot of deep threats
Hey thanks about the news on Franklin
I actually don’t remember him and what the hell happened to Sammie Parker? At one time he looked promising.
Engram will be solid and reliable while he is healthy. Should be an interesting season for both teams. One that I think both of us are hoping will lay the foundation for a strong future, more than a glorious present. But as your head coach knows as well as anyone, you never know when you may catch lightning in a bottle, or in this case a division!
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
by Rich Langford on Aug 2, 2009 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Very true
I think the Raiders and the Chiefs both are going to be the leaders in the Afc West within the next few years while the Broncos and Chargers and beginning to fall to the bottom.
The news on Franklin is that he came to camp out of shape and just wasnt looking good at all-he had flashes last year in KC and the guy has monster speed I really wish he would of worked out here in KC he went through the waivers and was picked up by Detroit before getting to Oakland.
Parker-I really dont know what happened to him he looked promising but had quite a few dropped passes-he went and played for Denver and I believe the Seahawks but Im not sure how he looked there. Im hoping Engram can help Bowe out some Im hoping he can finally have a pro bowl season if he can just stop dopping passes he could be a top ten WR.
Ill be at the Chiefs Raiders game in Kc should be interesting how we all start out we all know how the Chiefs Raiders games are they usually go down to the last drive!
despise the Chiefs
but a KC-Raiders game is one of the very finest matchups you’ll ever see in the NFL. Always intense, always passionate, always entertaining. Seems like the defenses for both teams take it up an extra notch in KC-Oakland games.
"You'll take my life but I'll take yours too. You'll fire you musket but I'll run you through. So when your waiting for the next attack. You'd better stand there's no turning back"- "The Trooper" by Iron Maiden
Thats Incorrect
If he plays for us 6 years, hes guaranteed 28 million plus a BASE Salary. The Base Salary will change depending on performance. He gets a low of 28 million and a high of 63 million. Most players..if they fulfill the contract, they generally only see roughly 75% of the money due to performance incentives. That would be about 48 million. But hey..youre right. JaMarcus signed 68 million with 31.5 guaranteed..without playing a down in the NFL. Cassell has played atleast 1 full season, by far outperformed Russell, and was signed for less. Yet we’re the ones who messed up.
at this point cassel is just as unproved (if not more) than Russell
i don’t understand how you can completely overlook the two teams supporting cast. Cassel had top of the line O-line, WR’s and defense/special teams. the raiders O-line was pretty horrible last year and we never had two starting WRs that consistently started throughout the year.
it’s just incompetent to think that Cassel is a much better QB based on his numbers in NE, Tim couch could’ve come out of retirement to post those numbers…
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
Theres 2 sides to everything
I definately understand the support casts. But at the same time, you can’t say that a QB is good or not just because players around him are good.
I shouldn’t of compared JaMarcus to Cassel because yes, they came from two different types of teams. But at the same time, you cant say that Cassel is only good because he was in NE. It doesnt matter how good people around you are if you cant get the ball in position for them to make a play on it
i agree that there's 2 sides to everything
but that being said, you really don’t have any idea of how well cassel will do outside of that amazing supporting cast. it’s not like an above average or good supporting cast, which would require a lot of help from the QB position. it’s a supporting cast that is arguably the best of its generation. Randy Moss/Wes Welker is a lot better than Dwayne Bowe and you admitted that the Chiefs O-line sucked balls. its not out of the question to believe that Cassel can’t succeed w/out NE.
not saying he can’t succeed outside of NE, just saying it’s a lot of money to handcuff yourself to somewhat of an unknown.
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
I would rather
pay 28 million guaranteed, 63 or whatever it was total, to a guy who has played a full season and still has questions around him..rather than pay 30+ guaranteed nearly 70 total to a guy who hasnt played a down in the NFL. I think there are alot more questions surrounding Russell than Cassel. Cassel has nothing questioning his work ethic, his leadership, nothing like that. He made in to the NFL without even starting in College. He had less than 200 yards during 4 years in college. He backed up Palmer, Leinart (who were both great for him to learn from..though Leinard went down the crapper) Then got to sit back and learn from Brady for 4 years. I’m sure he has more skill than ppl think. When he struggled in NE..they said oh hes no good blah blah blah. Then he got better and they said oh hes a system guy. Whats up with that? Seems like he was doomed from the start. He could have played like Peyton or Brady and woulda been labeled a system guy no matter what.
i hold the same belief for cassel, that i do for manning and brady
not saying they’d be bad outside of the comfort of their all-pro O-lines, just saying i’m willing to put a decent amount of money on them not being as successful.
i don’t really know what to make of ur points of Cassel not starting in college and being Brady’s backup for four years. i’m not sure what point it makes outside of him being an unknown, un-tested athlete. so what was your point? honest question, i know you said it to argue your belief in Cassel, just don’t see how.
it definitely is risky throwing a lot of money at a guy who never threw a pass in the NFL, but that’s the way the league has been set up. it’s not like contracts haven’t been thrown out like that before. For every Ryan leaf, Alex Smith you throw out, i give you 5 peyton manning-esque contributors. but don’t take my word for it, see for yourself
Russell also had success coming out of college, as cassel did not.. doesn’t prove anything though, just makes Cassel more of an unknown. albeit, a very rich unknown.
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
i hope you don't mind my opinion
cassel was said to have a very good camp in KC. That aside here’s what i have to say. cassel learned under one of the best qb’s in the game, and became a natural leader, which is very important to a qb’s success. Russel needs to develop leadership to be successful.
what he has doesn’t really matter(o-line, wr, etc). even with his o-line the pats o-line still registered i think over 40 sacks this year, whatever the number it wasn’t very good( a large part due to cassel holding on to the ball too long). Cassel over threw moss almost every deep play, the te was not used often, and he was able to connect with welker more because welker gets open more easier. But leadership is the most important thing, which is why i put cassel over russel. I think russel will have a great year with the raiders this year however, and i think he’ll do better than cassel this year if he develops leadership abilities.
of course i dont mind ur opinion
after all that’s what we’re hear for, to hear and debate other opinions. i agree with just about everything you said. on leadership being important, to cassel’s inconsistency despite having a great supporting cast.
some raiders have been quoted saying that russell is showing more leadership than he’s ever had before. of course, it’s impossible to tell till the games come, but it’s worth noting.
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
when the raiders are down by 7 with 1:00 left to go,
or when a situation has arrived where the game is on the line, then we’ll see if he can get his teams confidence going and work together to get the win, then russel will have winning seasons with the raiders.
My point about Cassel
not starting in college is that he sat behind a Heisman winner and learned the game from him. Then Leinart took over and beasted for USC and Cassel got to learn from him. Cassel went to the Pats and got to learn under one of the best QB’s in the NFL.
Agreed with the statement about for every Leaf, theres 5 big contributors. But typically the contributors dont have questions surrounding their leadership abilities as Russell did/does.
yep
even though he sat behind those guys, those heisman winners aren’t doing much in the nfl. even though cassel developed leadership abilities with one of the best in the game, every qb’s attribute is to have leadership and physically lead the team to victory. if russel wants to win, he better develop that ability.
Heisman winners have a knack for landing on poor teams that reach for flash and to fill seats,
rather than building a winning program.
No he was guaranteed 28 million the day he signed the contract.
From NFL.com
“The deal is worth $40.5 million over the first three years, which puts Cassel in the upper echelon of NFL contracts.
According to the source, Cassel will earn $15 million in 2009, in accordance with the franchise tender he originally signed with the New England Patriots before he was traded to the Chiefs this offseason.
La Canfora reports that Cassel’s contract also includes a $7.5 million bonus, which is triggered if the quarterback is on the Chiefs’ roster at the start of the 2011 league year. It’s technically not a roster bonus and is treated differently for salary-cap purposes."
The jury is obviously still out on Russel, as it is on all draft choices going into their third year. As a QB and a number one overall pick, there was not much of an option to sign him to any different contract.
The Chiefs had more options with Cassel. They could have let him play this year under the franchise tag for the same amount they are paying him anyway. And maybe just maybe he would have done so well this year that he would have drove his value up from what the signed him for, but I highly doubt that. I think the jury is still out on Cassel as well.
Bottom line the Raiders had options in who they drafted with the pick they used on Russel but once they did they did not have many options on what kind of contract to sign him to.
The Chiefs had options when signing Cassel to a long term deal.
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
by Rich Langford on Aug 3, 2009 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions
1st off, I think QBs are paid too much, in general.
That being said, the Chiefs parted with a 2nd-round pick for a QB who has a year of starting experience. Less of a gamble than Mark Sanchez, and for less money, as well. When I look past my general reservations about overpaying for QBs, the Cassel trade and contract is pretty modest compared to say the Sanchez deal. So that’s pretty much a winner.
28 million guaranteed is huge, but the guaranteed money is in line and even fairly conservative in today’s marketplace.
Blah blah blah. There are plenty of things you might criticize about the Chiefs, but throwin’ rocks at the Cassel is pretty weak.
I'm not sure where you get the %75 number from.
Did you go to the Master P school of Agents? Many players do not receive their full contract amount because they get cut before they expire, not because incentives are not reached. Most incentives are put in for salary cap purposes.
All you Chief fans better hope Cassel meats his major incentive 7.5 million for making the ’11 roster. I am sure he will because their cap will be screwed that year if they cut him or not, due to the large guaranteed number he received.
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
by Rich Langford on Aug 3, 2009 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions
if we didnt sign him
he gets 14 mil this yr then when he plays well we have to franchise him again next yr at 15 mil===29mil
if he is a bust and never lives up to the way he played in NE he gets cut and gets 28 mil
to me the contract seems smart he was going to get at least a two yr trial period regardless of how he plays, then if he plays the way we expect he will be worth more than 10 mil a yr and we wont have to pay it
u guys seem veeeery optimistic about ur raiders hope that works out for ya
early august aint a time for pessimism
seriously, if you think your out of the playoffs before the season even starts, why even watch. its not like we got someone like petey, sayin the chiefs go 9-7 (which would win the division) if they were better conditioned.
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
Dude
Seriously?! I thought we talked about this already
3 days ago, I responded to dubzero23 and said “I see no less than 6 wins for the Chiefs THIS year” Other than that, I have NOT said the Chiefs would win anything. I never said shit about 9 games.
I said we were 2-14 LAST year. I said that if we were in better condition LAST year, we could have won atleast 2 of the 7 games we lost by 7 points or less. That would have made us 4-12, NOWHERE near the 9-7 record you keep bringing up. Just because I said we lost 7 games by 7 points or less doesnt mean I think we should have won ALL of them. I have not said that ANYWHERE on this post and I would like to see you quote anything on this FanPost where I said we are going 9-7 or anything other than the 6 wins I said we would get.
I dont believe in optimisim or pessimism. I’m a realest. I look at whats on the table in front of me and make a decision. Does that mean I’m right? No. But I go by the evidence and I will call it no matter what. On my Football Pool’s last year, I picked against the Chiefs alot (not all 14 games we lost, but quite a bit) Why? Because the evidence suggests we wouldnt win.
This year, I think the evidence suggests alot. New scheme, new direction, new veterans, new young guys, promising guys from the last couple of years progressing, new coaches, new GM. They are bringing in guys who are known for a strong work ethic, leadership, knowledge. These guys may not have alot in the tank. Maybe they cant perform at top level anymore. But they are fundamentally solid and are great teachers. Before Haley/Pioli, the chiefs had 3 total players who had ever been to a superbowl. Now we have 13. He’s trying to bring guys who have been there and know what it takes to get there. The young players look up to these guys and learn from them. Thats why its imporant.
Because of the FA’s, trades, draft, new scheme and coaches, I feel very safe saying atleast 6 wins.
Latest buzz from camp is Engram is struggling.
Chiefs WRs are struggling right now as a group, to hear it from camp. In contrast to previous seasons, I think they’ve assembled plenty of speed and good size. It’s the finer points and the consistency that are at issue, right now. Haley has a “guru” reputation, and maybe he’ll prove out on it. So far, he comes across like the real deal, but MOST gurus I’ve seen go thru KC were the beneficiaries of talented players, rather than the reason they emerged.
i agree w/most of that
but the chiefs definitely couldve traded down. the browns did two spots behind you. it was actually the raiders who couldnt trade down….
al davis has won more than he’s lost and i doubt any of your ex-chiefs even make the team. their camp bodies. but i could kinda see how they fit into the chiefs. san diego should definitely be the favorite but i wouldnt be surprised if someone pushed them.
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
what would the Chiefs have traded?
"You'll take my life but I'll take yours too. You'll fire you musket but I'll run you through. So when your waiting for the next attack. You'd better stand there's no turning back"- "The Trooper" by Iron Maiden
Al Davis has won more than he's lost
But not within the last few years. The superbowl sucked everything out of him. I was actually pulling for Oakland. I wanted to see Chiefs-product Rich Gannon get a ring. Since then, Davis went down the Shitter.
the chiefs could've traded down from #3
because everyone knew there were teams looking to trade up to get Sanchez. It would’ve been pretty easy for the chiefs to trade down and get more picks, especially since the Browns were considered a legitimate spot for Sanchez to get picked.
It’s really unfair to let 6 years of failure erase 40+ years of success. the raiders have been rebuilding the right way (through the draft) the last couple of years. they’re filled with good, young talented around many positions
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
You should talk about things you dont know about
Pioli already said he tried to trade down but there were no takers. Just because a team wants to trade up and get Sanchez doesnt mean they’d trade up to #3. Why do you think we took Jackson so high? IF we could have traded down, we easily could have taken Tyson later in the top 10 or maybe even top 15. I’m pretty sure Pioli knew that.
"You should talk about things you don't know about"
Well, now there’s some interesting logic.
"We're Rock Stars... We're Lakers."
-- Lamar Odom
"We had the skull-and-crossbones on our helmets, the black jerseys, and the whole bit... and we lived it."
-- George "The HitMan" Atkinson
"WE STOMPED YOU OUT!"
-- Michael Strahan
by 5_Giant_Raider_Clipper_Laker_13 on Aug 3, 2009 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions
lol nice catch
"You'll take my life but I'll take yours too. You'll fire you musket but I'll run you through. So when your waiting for the next attack. You'd better stand there's no turning back"- "The Trooper" by Iron Maiden
but i don't understand
how could there have been no takers if the browns traded down 2 picks after you? makes no sense.
if the browns could trade down, so could the chiefs, unless pioli was asking too much…in which case he totally missed the boat on that.
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
Shouldnt*
Believe it or not, there IS a difference between 3 and 5. The Jets knew Sanchez would not go in the Top 3. Most people thought after the top 2 OT’s were taking that the chiefs would either take Curry or another OT. Sanchez wasnt in the question. Sanchez wasnt slotted to go to Seattle either.
Cleveland wanted Curry and when the Seahawks grabbed him, they wanted to trade down. I dont know why New York traded up to the top 5 to grab Sanchez.. Maybe the teams between them didnt want to trade. But Pioli already said after the draft happened that he would have preferred to trade down, get an extra pick, and still grab Jackson.
Werent the Jets originally picking at like..17? Maybe Pioli thought Jackson would be gone by then. Which he probably would have been.
You werent there. Neither was I. But if we both think that Tyson Jackson was taken pretty high, then I’m sure the guys in the organization know that too. And I’m sure they have their reasons. Whether he wanted too much to trade, or couldnt find an offer he liked, it doesnt matter. He said he wanted to trade, but didnt do it. Case closed. Didnt think another thought about it.
that definitely sounds reasonable. and it's hard to fault pioli
but i did remember reading that Sanchez could’ve legitimately gone to Seattle at #4 as well as the Browns at #5. If the Jets wanted Sanchez, he could’ve been a legitimate #3 pick.
i’d still have to say your right about Tyson Jackson not making it to 17. Neither of us was there and so we’ll never know for sure, but it certainly begs the question of what else the chiefs could’ve gotten if they had traded down.
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
Definately
Most of us wanted Curry, some wanted an OT and a few wanted Crabtree. I liked Tyson because I knew we were trying to go 3-4 and hes the perfect fit for a 3-4 DE. When we took him at 3, I couldnt help but wonder what else we could of had too. Maybe a C in the 3rd round. Maybe a LB. Who knows? But I do know he said he wanted to trade down but didnt have an offer he liked.
i guess both our teams drafted someone too high
but it’s better to get your guy, than the guy that’s “supposed” to go to you
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
Agreed.
Probably the most important thing. I agree with Best Player Available in certain situations, but in a top pick, you gotta go with the best player of need.
unless we're talking the mlb draft
i dont believe in BPA unless there aren’t significant holes to fill.
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
I'm split
I really dont like BPA either. But drafting BPA got us Larry Johnson..
On the flip side to that, we already had a top ranked O, had the worst D and could have had Polomalu.
Fuck Carl Peterson. Good Riddance to him. haha.
my point exactly
larry johnson had some amazing years. but a lot of the time he was on the bench, or struggling w/ health, suspension, performance, etc.
polomalu (and im sure he’s not the only one) would’ve provided a lot more to the chiefs than LJ. but hindsight is 20/20
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
it depends on how much the chiefs asked for
we can safely say the only teams trading up would want to trade up to get Mark Sanchez. And there was a lot more teams wanting to trade down, than trade up. it’s all supply and demand, and high draft picks had a lot of supply, but little demand. means the chiefs probably couldnt have gotten what they wanted for the #3 spot.
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
You don't know that, naq92.
The #3 was hard to trade. Chiefs would’ve felt better grabbin’ Jackson farther down, but the biggest move, as you point out, was the Jests moving up to #5 for Sanchez. Not many teams desperate enough to move into the top 5 and #5 was the highest it went.
don't know what? not sure what you're replying too...
but the seahawks could’ve legitimately grabbed Sanchez, which means the #3 pick could’ve been traded. thing is, the chiefs seemed pretty dead-set on getting tyson jackson, so i’m not sure you want to drop all the way down to 19 where he might not make it.
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
You spoke as though the Chiefs could have traded down from #3
and I’m sayin’ it wasn’t that easy.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
lol
i think the standings is sumthin like this
Chargers: 9-7
Raiders: 7-9
Broncos: I can’t decide on either 5-11 or 4-12
Chiefs: 4-12
Trains , planes, and automoblies,.... better have my donuts!!!!
I seriously
Doubt the Chiefs only win 4 games this year. We lost 7 games by 7 points or less last season, most being in the 4th quarter. 2 games vs SD…lost by 1 point each. That points to conditioning and Haley has made it clear that our team WILL be in shape.
That alone should give us a 4 game swing over last year. I dont see any less than 6 wins this year for the Chiefs.
without Tony G?
bullshit. He kept you in games. Now that he’s gone, Bowe is the only threat. LJ isn’t exactly an elite back anymore, which he was for only one year. Zach Thomas and Mike Vrabel are old and were released/traded for a reason. Thomas wasn’t good enough in Dallas and Vrabel was losing his edge. Jackson doesn’t help your miserable pass rush which means the below average secondary will still be below average. KC goes 3-13 if only for the fact that Cassel is marginally better than any of the other 3 QB’s you used last year.
"You'll take my life but I'll take yours too. You'll fire you musket but I'll run you through. So when your waiting for the next attack. You'd better stand there's no turning back"- "The Trooper" by Iron Maiden
Thomas wasnt released
He had the option to resign but didnt want to play for the Cowboys anymore and hes not washed up he had 94 tackles last year based on playing only 1st and 2nd downs. We didnt get these guys to be defensive studs either we are trying to mentor our younger players like DJ to teach them how to be a defensive leader and above average player
thank you for the new found logic
but these are guys are still going to be starters this year (I presume) which will keep the Chiefs from the aforementioned 6 win prediction brought up by Petey14
"You'll take my life but I'll take yours too. You'll fire you musket but I'll run you through. So when your waiting for the next attack. You'd better stand there's no turning back"- "The Trooper" by Iron Maiden
Keeping that in mind
that (older players arent going to help you win games) what do you think about the Raiders signing of Greg Ellis?
i cant speak for kaizer
but i see greg ellis as a one or two year stop gap and insurance for whether or not we trade burgess.
im not under the belief that thomas, dawkins and vrabel won’t help you win games this year but i don’t think they’re going to help you as much as you’d like.
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
I respect that
and that is exactly the plan we are using them like a patch on a leaky room as another APer said they are here temporarily hold us together until we get younger guys that will come in a replace them and we may be bringing in another one in Toomer he came in and worked out for us yesterday..and Dawkins is a Bronco we signed Mike Brown
Whoaa..
Several comments..
Bowe, LJ, Charles, and Cassel are all threats. Bradley is set to have a good year since most attention will go to Bowe. Bradley has the talent..he just has to get his head straight. The loss of Tony G hurts, but he was not our whole offense. We lost Tony G..but we added Cassel, Goff, Engram, and still have Bowe, Bradley and Charles. Thigpen locked in on Tony G alot. Cassel showed last year that he didnt lock on to one guy all the time.
LJ being an elite back remains to be seen. He had 2 good years, not 1. He put up 1750 yards and 20 TDs on the ground alone, in only 9 starts. The other 7 games he was splitting carries with Priest. Then he rushed for 1789. He was suspended 4 games last year and missed half the season the year before. He’s dropped 12lbs and has bought into the program.
Heres the part that I couldnt belive. “Jackson doesn’t help your miserable pass rush which means the below average secondary will still be below average.” First, nobody said Jackson was going to help the pass rush. The part that killed me was the “Below average secondary”
How much do you really know about your rival? If you knew anything, you would know our Secondary is strong. Last season, QB’s had ALL DAY to throw the ball because of the lack of a pass rush. Our secondary is the bright spot of our Defense. Once we get after the QB, our secondary is going to turn into something great.
Heres an interesting note..with a nonexistant pass rush and a “below average secondary” JaMarcus was 16 of 45, for 187 yards, no TD’s. Wow! Great job..
Hey Petey, I'm on your side...
but I’m not as sanguine as most Chiefs fans about the secondary. I like the young corners, but NObody in KC is talking about possible growing pains in the abandonment of the Tampa-2 D for the new 3-4 D. Chances are good that the corners will benefit from better pass rush (How could it be worse?), but their job description is VERY likely to change, and it’s the one thing none of us homers on AP (except me) are talking about.
Keep in mind that the AFC West is facing a brutal schedule.
It is also very naive to think that 4th quarter failures point towards conditioning. If better conditioning is what the Chiefs are pointing to as the basis for turning around their season… well, I, am a Raiders fan, am excited.
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
by Rich Langford on Aug 3, 2009 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions
No..
I’m not pointing everything to better conditioning. I’m saying that if you watched our games, you could visibly see a difference throughout the game. Our guys were getting gassed. We blew a 14 point lead over SD in the final minutes of the game to lose by 1. I’m saying that being in top shape is going to keep those losses from happening. We got tired and made alot of mental mistakes. There was a major lack in discipline because Herm was a players coach. He wasnt hardnosed enough to be a head coach. Late in the game we were getting alot of Holding, offsides, stupid nagging penalties because guys werent focused.
All Herm wanted to do was Run, Run, Pass, Punt all game. New coaching, more experienced players, IN SHAPE, is what is going to make the difference.
This is fun- I am so glad the Chiefs were worse than the Raiders last year.
lost by 1 point each. That points to conditioning….
I don’t know where I got the idea that you thought the Chiefs close loses could have been a result of conditioning. Oh wait… didn’t you come back and say
I’m saying that being in top shape is going to keep those losses from happening. We got tired and made alot of mental mistakes
You are right about your secondary. With only ten sacks last year teams had all day to make your secondary look bad and they would have looked even worse had teams not been able to run the ball effectively on them. I am hoping Jamarcus improves those dismal numbers against the Chiefs this year, if not, I for one will be losing hope in his future.
I say this because, I do not see any reason why the Chiefs pass rush, or defense as a whole, should be any better. It looks like you will have rookies on the ends and the outside lb’s will be who? Hali and Vrabel probably, Hali is too slow and Vrabel is ancient and had only four sacks last year.
The Chiefs have undersized guys to play nose tackle. Which is going to lead to an ugly way to end Zack Thomas’s career.
I do not expect the Raiders to have a dominant offense this year, but I do expect that they will be able to build confidence and stats playing against the Chiefs defense.
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
by Rich Langford on Aug 4, 2009 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions
Dude..
Are you missing the point of what im saying about us being in shape?
If you arent in shape, you WILL lose games. We lost ALOT of games in the 4th quarter. Guys make mental mistakes when they are tired. All I am saying is that BEING IN SHAPE gives us a better chance (alot better chance) of not letting teams catch us from behind. If you saw any of the Chiefs games, you would know what I’m talking about. Ask anybody who watched the Chiefs last year and they will tell you we were constantly getting gassed late in the game and losing in the 4th quarter. Your Defense would be gassed too if they played 3/4ths of the game. Being in better condition is only going to HELP.
And yes, our Secondary is a bright spot. Young? Yes. Theyre bound to make mistakes. Of our Starters, the Safeties are heading into their 4th year and our CB’s are heading into their 2nd year. Jarrad Page managed 4 INT’s with no help from the front 7 getting pressure on the QB. Our rookie CB’s managed 4 INT’s combined also. With some pressure up front, and more experience, these guys are going to be great. Herm Edwards brought them all to KC and if Herm knows anything…its DB’s. BTW…Page..was a 7th round pick
Why should the defense be any better? New scheme, new coaches, new players, more experience. Hali is not too slow..He was always a SPEED rusher. Hes fast enough to rush from the outside and quick enough to cover the flat when needed. His weakness in the 4-3 was that he would overpursue constantly. He was always trying to beat guys with speed on the outside. Since OT’s didnt have to worry about the inside move, it was pretty easy for them to block him. They’d just guide him down past the QB.
Now yes, I will agree, I am a bit concerned about NT. Tank has added weight but I dont know how much. He was about 310. But his strength is through the roof so who knows..
We went 2-14 last year. Lost 7 games by 7 points or less. We lost ONE PLAYER…and added several. Cassel..upgrade over Thigpen. Goff..major upgrade over Adrian Jones. Zach Thomas..upgrade over Donnie Edwards. Mike Vrabel..upgrade over Demarrio Williams. Bobby Engram..upgrade over our Darling and Webb. New defensive scheme..instead of that Tampa 2 bend-but-dont-break BS that Herm tried to run..we’ll run the 3-4/4-3 hybrid. The important thing is we brought in vets who know how to win. Their ability to teach our young guys is the most important thing.
I see nothing less than 6 wins this year.
then prepare to be disappointed
i think the chiefs main problem last year was not their conditioning, but their pass rush. DBs cant cover WRs all day so if your pass rush isn’t causing pressure, comebacks become a lot more easier.
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
Wow..
dude apparently you didnt WATCH the chiefs last year. Which I expect. Thats why you shouldnt be making comments about things you dont know about. Thank you Stuart Scott..I didnt know we didnt have a pass rush last year. Could you find some highlights for me and show me what you are talking about?
Our Offense was 16th in Rushing, 20th in passing. Not too shabby for a POS OL. Guys like Adrian Jones, Wade Smith, Damion McIntosh. Offensive Linemen. Made ALOT of 4th quarter mistakes. Holding, false starts, things like that. Why did they do fine throughout games then fall apart in the 4th quarter? Maybe because their fatasses werent in shape. Our guys were TIRED in the 4th quarter. Run, Run, Pass, Punt. 3 and outs all 2nd half. By the time 4th quarter came, our Defense was too tired to do anything. We didnt have the SACKS to show a pass rush..but we did have PRESSURE that QB’s were able to get away from. In 4th quarters..we didnt even have pressure. We had nothing. We had DL’s getting knocked over, OL’s hitting LB’s after flattening the DL’s, and we had DB’s flying around the field trying to cover everyone else. Our safeties LED the team in tackling. Our problems were alot deeper than a “lack of pass rush”
Seriously..I’m tired of trying to explain this to you. I watched every game last year. If we werent out of shape last year, then why would Haley be preaching about it? Why would he hold out 3/5’s of our OL until they passed a conditioning test before they could participate in training camp? Why would every Chiefs fan who watched games last year agree with the fact that we were out of shape? Why would Chiefs Players themselves admit they were out of shape last year?
Seriously..dont talk about what you dont know about. It drives people crazy. I havent said 1 word about what the Raiders were like last year except for what I know about. Which isnt much..as I’ve already said the only games I WATCHED was the 2 chiefs games. Everything else..is just SportsCenter. Highlights dont tell you the whole story dude. Go watch the KC vs NYJ game. Watch both SD games. Watch KC vs TB. Watch any of those games and you can VISIBLY tell that conditoning WAS an issue. So was the Pass Rush, yes, but if our Offense wouldnt of fallen apart in the 4th quarter..due to stupid mistakes..our D wouldnt of been on the field as much to throw the game away.
my bad. i meant to say it applied to the 2 games
the chiefs played the raiders, i definitely can’t account for the other 14.
from reading your comment, i still think its naive to think that the chiefs would’ve been that much better if they had been well-condition (which u are implying, right)?
i didn’t mean to come off as knowing everything about the chiefs, or that i know exactly how the chiefs have been playing. just stating an observation i got from watching the chiefs play the raiders (and i guess some highlights, which probably aren’t worth much).
but i guess i shouldn’t voice my opinion because if it doesn’t mesh with yours, it is obviously incredibly false, right?
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
Somewhat
I’m not saying we would have been MUCH better…im simply saying that out of 7 games we lost by 7 points or less…we should have been able to win atleast a couple of those had we been in shape. Notably NYJ, SD the 2nd time and TB games. We lost in the final minutes because we couldnt keep the damn ball. Too many mental mistakes. Penalties. Missed assignments. Getting run over by opposing DL’s. It was so frustrating.
I’m not trying to say dont voice your opinion because its not with mine. Not at all. I was under the impression that you were talking about our season, not the 2 games you saw. My point is, we could have won ATLEAST those 2 or 3 games had we been in better shape. Sure, we coulda won with more pressure on the QB or this or that but had our guys been in shape..more so the offensive linemen..there would have been less MENTAL mistakes associated with fatigue. More focus, Less mistakes. Maybe we could have gotten that 1st down we missed, or maybe blocked that guy who got the sack. You cant break down a teams failures into ONE thing. But, from watching the games, I know that we could have had more wins with better conditioning. When you have players with hands on their knees…players slow to get up..slow first steps..slow everything..you can just see the fatigue setting in. Once we could see that..we knew we could lose.
I was going to stop here..but I want to share a vivid memory in the San Diego game. 14-3 KC heading into half time. We get the ball after Halftime.
3 and out. Luckily, we got an interception..offense puts the ball in the endzone. 21-3.
San Diego comes out and puts up a TD. Chiefs get the ball back. 3 and out.
Next posession..ended up punting. Forced SD to punt. We go 3 and out.
Next posession..I think we actually started to move the ball. I remember getting my hopes up..we might not actually throw the game away. (by now the score is 21-10) SD gets the ball..goes down field and scores. went for 2 and missed. 21-16.
I’m biting my nails. SD goes for the onside. DBOWE HAS THE BALL..YES…gets hit in the air..loses the ball..and SD recovers. Oh no. I will never forget that onside kick. SD drives. Scores again. with 40 seconds left in the game. went for 2 again. missed again.
22-21 San Diego. Chiefs get the ball..decent field position. We got a penalty in our favor..final play of the game 50 yard field goal. Missed. Game over, Chiefs lose in the 4th again.
maybe u were truly
but GODAMN, it sure sounded like the chiefs were going 12-4 if they didn’t play so poorly in the 4th quarter. maybe i just got the wrong impression from what you said.
i don’t know what that game scenario you gave us means? from the outside, it looks like you just had a shitty, undisciplined offense. one that struggled to move the ball and when it did, had to constantly worry about drive-crippling penalties. sounds a lot like the raiders…
but if the raiders won all the close losses, they’d have won division too. you take gimmick plays (like that janokowski flip, a 10 point swing in your favor) and perhaps the raiders finish in playoff contention. but more than likely we lost our games for a reason. that we weren’t the better football team that day.
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
No
We were 2-14. I said we lost 7 games by 7 or less so even if we won all 7 of those it would still only make us 9-7, not 12-4 as you thought I implied for whatever reason.
Forget the game scenario. I’m not going to explain. You’re grown, you can figure it out.
As for close losses..you only had 3 compared to our 7. (based on losses by 7 points or less) So idk what youre talking about “if the raiders won all the close losses, they’d have won the division” You lost to Buffalo by 1, Miami by 2, and KC by 7. The game against Miami..you guys were actually losing by 9 and had a return TD to cut the lead to 2. Miami sat on the ball punting it back with only 40 seconds left. So its not like Miami came from behind to beat you. And the Chiefs? It was 10-10 heading into the first quarter and we won 20-13 so its not like we came from behind to beat you either.
Being in shape is part of being a better football team. So we werent in shape. We couldnt keep the chains moving. Therefore our Defense was tired. We lost the ability to put ANY pressure on the QB in the 2nd half, notably the 4th quarter. This led to losing to 3 teams in the final minutes of the game after holding a comfortable lead. So yes, you could say the same for us. We werent the better football team that day.
BUT..
You dont necessarily have to be the better team to win. Much like the Patriots in the start of the dynasty. How many games were the Patriots beat in every aspect of the game, yet managed to win via last second field goals?
your not getting my point
what i’m trying to say is that it doesn’t make sense to say the chiefs even approach 9-7 (yeah, actually, you made it sound like your chiefs were going to the fucking superbowl) with a lil more conditiong.
what about the chargers @ raiders game, where Oakland was up 16-0 nothin at halftime. the scores not close because SD ran the score up at the end. i’d go on, but that would be redundent.
if you don’t understand why ppl are reacting to your comments more negatively than you thought they should, maybe you should look at the wording of your comments..
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
Okay..
So add your SD game to the list of close games. Thats still only 4 games that were close and only 2 of them were come from behind victories for the other team.
I never said it made sense for the Chiefs to reach 9-7. I said they lost 7 games by 7 or less and most likely would have won atleast 2 or 3 of those had we been in better condition. I never mentioned a superbowl, never mentioned playoffs, never even mentioned being a .500 team. You insist that I implied that, but I have yet to see how you can make that assumption.
I didnt question why ppl are reacting to my comments the way they are. I actually expected alot of “fuck off chiefs fan” or “go to hell, you’ll like the colors” and I havent seen any of that. I respect the fact that you are debating these topics. I’m not, and have not been, and will not be angry about any of the posts thus far. Its been a good debate.
4 games is a quarter of a season? thats not a lot?
4 more wins puts the raiders in the playoffs (we finished with 5 wins, not 2). you never said it, but to me, the impression i got from reading your comments is that the chiefs are a contender with better conditioning. i guess i over-exaggerated on them going to the super bowl, but you get the idea…..right?
i’m just sayin, you go into the raider blog, and the chiefs become the topic of conversation, you can’t expect that chocolate covered optimism, you get over at arrowhead pride. our 2 teams are in one of the longest-running heated rivalries, and i (and i’m sure i ain’t the only one) love watching the chiefs go down whether they’re in the superbowl or 0-15.
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
Where
did I say you won 2 games? I never said that. Wtf..
I said “So add your SD game to the list of close games. Thats still only 4 games that were close and only 2 of them were come from behind victories for the other team.”
Do you need that to be broken down for you to understand it?
Add your SD game to the other 3 games that were close games. That equals 4 games that were close.
But only 2 out of those 4 games were come from behind victories from the other team. (thats the same criteria I used for the Chiefs. I said 2 out of the 7 games. The two games I chose were games last at the end of the 4th quarter)
Again, I never said we were a contender with better conditioning. I never said we were a contender at all. READ MY PREVIOUS COMMENTS. I have read atleast two comments that were posted early on, that I believed the Chiefs would win no less than 6 games. Stop arguing that, and go back and read it for yourself. Its posted.
Misunderstood! the chiefs won 2 games
so winning four more games for you guys would’ve only meant a worse draft pick, but for the raiders it woulda meant a playoff birth. if u still don’t understand, just forget about it, its not important.
you obviously aren’t understanding what me, and some other guys are saying, so i’m just gonna leave it alone.
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
Again, Petey, I'm on your side...
But you can’t say run-run-pass-punt all 2nd half in the same breath you’re claiming the o-line is gassed.
Haley’s raised the level of conditioning, the pace of practice, and the expectations on the mental side. There’s a chance that this team will be VASTLY improved. I think we ALL saw last season some flashes of dominance, followed by one or three mental mistakes that flushed it all down the toilet, so I REALLY understand your optimism.
And for all the faults of King Carl, he DID hand Pioli a SWEET salary cap situation, which allows the Chiefs to go after a smarter player at ‘most any position they aren’t seeing the focus and football intelligence that they want.
The best case I can make for improvement in the 4th quarter, though, is the versatility and interchangeability the Chiefs are obviously thinking about. I HOPE that the level of execution by the #1s is high enough to compete with the best, but I’m pretty SURE that the scheme won’t go out the window as they rotate players in and out of the lineup during a game. They SHOULD be better-conditioned. Grain of salt: I’ve seen just as many players wear out or break down by overtraining over the years as I’ve seen players benefit. I think seeing Zach Thomas and Mark Vrabel riding the exercise bike uninjured might relate to that. So it appears that Haley has an eye on that aspect.
I am pretty sure I am getting your point...
which is your defense being in shape gives you alot (sp) better chance of not having teams catch you from behind. My point is… good luck with that. As you said your defense got tired from being on the field 3/4 of the game. Well the way most intelligent franchises try to solve this problem is by getting the defense off of the field. There is no amount of conditioning that will help a D that is on the field that much.
I do not see the kind of players yet, in place, that will help the new scheme flourish. I discussed Hali in a post further down. I am confused about your reasoning of Hali having an improved inside rush.
I would be hesitant to call Vrabel an upgrade over anyone as I think it was clear last year that his skills are in serious decline. Thomas has also slowed down although certainly not as much a Vrabel.
Living in Seattle I know all about Engram. He is a solid route runner and he is slowing way down. It would also be an oddity if he were healthy for a full season especially at his advanced age.
Goff should be an upgrade over Jones and his flexibility will be nice, especially considering the fact that Waters has so far earned the team pissy pants award.
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
by Rich Langford on Aug 4, 2009 8:22 PM PDT up reply actions
You missed my point..go figure
If our defense was on the field 3/4’s of the game, I dont think conditioning was as big of an issue with them. Like you said, no amount of conditioning will let a defense thrive being on the field all the time.
Our OL was out of shape more than anyone (hence the fact that 3 of our starting 5 linemen were held out of practice for not passing the conditioning test) Speaking of the conditioning test, its no picnic. 3 300 yard sprints with 1 minute inbetween in under a set time. I cant remember the times but it was divided up for wr/db, TE/RB/LB and OL/DL. Like I said before, our OL was making mental mistakes, late in the game. They were tired, slow to get up and getting knocked over by opposing DL’s. They’d look decent for a bit, then completely fall apart late in the game. Because of this, the D was on the field constantly.
You know what, we might as well drop the conditioning subject since you have yet to understand it. Its not hard to comprehend. I’m not talking about being in shape this year and we’re going to win atleast 3 more games. I was made one simple comment that HAD we been in shape LAST SEASON, we likely…LIKELY..not for sure..not definately..but LIKELY would have won atleast 2 of the 7 close games, most likely being one of the come from behind losses that we experienced. Thats it. End of Story. Period. Case Closed.
Trust me. Vrabel is an upgrade over what we had last year. Come on..Rocky Boiman? He had playing time last year. You’ve probably never even heard of him.
I know I hadnt.
We know Engram has declined. We know Vrabel has declined. We know Thomas has declined. We know Goff has declined. We know Toomer has declined. We know. Their leadership and success bring more to the team than their talents do. Why do you think so many teams are able to produce multiple talented players at positions? Because when players get old, they spend 1st day picks on players of that position and let them grow. Steelers are notorious for LB’s. Why? Because they GROOM them.
you wanna talk about Steelers LB's and why there so good
you HAVE to mention Dick Lebeau. one hell of a track record.
umm..you never said the chiefs would’ve won only 2 of those 7 close games until just now. ur backing off what you said before, which seemed like they win 5-6 or maybe even all 7 of those games.
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
Again..
Quote me. Show me a comment where I said “we would have won 5, 6, or 7 of those games” or anything remotely close to that. I specifically mentioned 3 games that we could have 1. TB, NYJ, and SD2. I believe, had we been in shape/better condition, we WOULD have beaten TB and SD2. NYJ is possible, but I’m not going that far out on a limb. That would be 2 of the 7 games I said I think we could have won.
So yes, I did say that before just now. Good thing there are Time Stamps on the comments to prove it. Go back and read them.
This is completely inflamatory and speaks to my skeptical and cynical nature but,
I think a big reason why the Steelers keep producing amazing LB’s out of nowhere is PHD’s.
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
by Rich Langford on Aug 6, 2009 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions
woops I meant PED's
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
by Rich Langford on Aug 6, 2009 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Come on that was funny.
Has he cheered up any?
What are your guys thoughts on Engram thus far. I personally think he is close to done. He was existing on his relationship with Hasselback. I am not sure he had any value to anyone other than the Hawks this year.
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
by Rich Langford on Aug 6, 2009 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions
ehhh
Im not so sure on him yet..I read that he isnt doing so hot and that may be the main reason Amani Toomer is a Chief now. If Engram doesnt step it up he could find himself on the street. Im really hoping he can pull it together b/c he has always been good in the slot.
As I have said, I have been a Raider fan stuck in Seattle for a few years...
and I do not have a bad word to say about Engram, but I do believe after watching him, I couldn’t avoid Seahawks news here, that he is done. He was still a precision route runner, however.
Is Toomer going to play slot? Did he spend much time in the slot in NYG? If he is a slot guy, between him and Engram, you might get sixteen games worth of decent slot WR.
How’s the TE position looking for you guys? I was dancing around naked when I heard Tony G was finally out of the division. Damn, he killed the Raiders over the years.
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
by Rich Langford on Aug 6, 2009 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Well as far as Toomer goes to be honest Im not realy sure if he is a slot guy or not I just know hes going to be big for us on 3rd down the guy has always been amazing at getting the clutch catches through the years…
TE:Well Haley said that its pretty much an open race right now and some have predicted Sean Ryan to steal the job out from under the second year Brad Cottam. Cottam hasnt been practicing much b/c he has something wrong with his ankle and I heard was dropping some passes while he was playing. I know Gonzo will never be replaced the guy is irreplacable but from what I saw in Arizona Haley isnt big on using the Tight End anyways so Id say whoever can come in and make some good blocks will get the nod but I wouldnt be suprised if Cottam became a redzone threat seeing that he stands at 6’8 should be hard to defend. and I was very upset that day that we traded Gonzo..one of my buds at work is a donkeys fan and I got hell about it but one thing I hear from everyone they are glad hes out of the AFC West b/c even Chiefs haters respect him
i thought Toomer was a GREAT pickup
i was rootin for the raiders to get him until they drafted DHB and Murphy…
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
Haley definatley liked to spread the field with his receivers last year.
That is probably a big part of the reason why Gonzo was expendable. Because Pioli in New England always seemed to be stock piling TE’s. Nothing but respect for Tony though.
I was surprised Toomer was still available.
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
by Rich Langford on Aug 6, 2009 6:28 PM PDT up reply actions
I was too...
Im still quitely rooting to bring in Matt Jones I know hes been in trouble but the guy has potential he would be worth it if you could get a contract based on performance and getting in trouble. wouldnt hurt for a year or 2 contract…
he's the kind of guy
both are teams have been stayin away from this offseason. i think when a team is rebuilding, i think just adding classy vets is the way to go. but thats just one mans opinion.
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
200+ comments nice
yeah I know what you mean Im just going to be sick if I see him go somewhere and him be a steal…
ya, that'd suck
it’d be a longshot though, but still, he definitely has the tools…
as a raider fan, i don’t want to see him come to oakland and potentially disrupt the chemistry and hard-working attitude we have going for us so far. we’ve tried that so many times before
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
Not only a hard workers
but precision route runners.
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
by Rich Langford on Aug 6, 2009 10:13 PM PDT up reply actions
I know Al Davis loved Burress
so I wouldn’t put it past him. I am not sure anyong knows when Burress will be able to play again yet though.
Oh…. Burgess Junk his ass! We aren’t going to get anything for him. It would be nice to get a decent DT but I do not see that happening. You guys want him? Ten bucks and some KC BBQ and he is yours.
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
by Rich Langford on Aug 6, 2009 10:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh
Shit we did trade Burgess… for the ol undislosed draft pick. I am assuming the undisclosed draft pick will be the player to be named later. I’ll take anything. I am glad Mr. unhappy is gone.
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
by Rich Langford on Aug 6, 2009 10:18 PM PDT up reply actions
personally
i think we got one hell of a deal for him. he wasn’t playing for us this year anyways. i cant believe we got a 3rd round pick for this guy, plus the 5th is just a bonus.
i honestly thought the most we would get for him is a 6th, but maybe i’m just a pessimist when it comes to trade value…
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
i do.
his sack totals have dropped every year and he’s been gettin hurt an awful lot.
New England, i’m sure, knows what they were doin on this one, because they always seem to know what the hell they’re doing. i wouldn’t be surprised if he has a great year for them, especially since it’s a contract year. but he was holding out and undermining the philosophy Tom Cable is using to try and get the Raiders together.
in short, Burgess had to go. no matter what. i’m just surprised we got good value for him.
(we actually get a 3rd and 4th round pick, unless NE acquires a 5th rounder, in which case we’d get a 3rd and a 5th)
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
very true about new england
Just look at the Moss trade everyone thought he was done boy where they wrong…
ya...that was just a sorry situation
but it is what it is. it’s just soo sad how the raiders managed to have not been able to use moss effectively. just throw the ball up to the motherfucker!
oh well…
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
I hate russell
I think is was lucky in college, and he is going to go down in NFL history as the biggest bust ever. as for crabtree, he’s good but the foot injury is question.
How exactly do you get lucky in college when playing in the SEC?
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Aug 2, 2009 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions
obviously
ur belief that russell won’t succeed has more to do with your hate with them as opposed to any real knowledge or facts. hating someone won’t make them suck. sorry.
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
dman naq
bringing the hammer down.
"You'll take my life but I'll take yours too. You'll fire you musket but I'll run you through. So when your waiting for the next attack. You'd better stand there's no turning back"- "The Trooper" by Iron Maiden
haha
someone’s gotta stick up for our raidernation
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
dude, you've even got me riled up
I’ll join in your systematic destruction of the Chiefs’ fans.
"You'll take my life but I'll take yours too. You'll fire you musket but I'll run you through. So when your waiting for the next attack. You'd better stand there's no turning back"- "The Trooper" by Iron Maiden
That Distinction Already Goes to Ryan Leaf
But when they start scheming us the way these guys did, and we weren't particularly ready for it, anything can happen."
by Raymond St. Martin (Saint) on Aug 3, 2009 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions
No way. I think he's already completed more passes than Ryan Leaf.
Maybe not. But Russell would have to try harder to be worse than Leaf.
Haha.... Cheifs? or....Queefs?!
Comin in here to talk a little doodoo eh? Well fk that, and fk the chiefs!
Nothin goin on in MO to talk about? oh wait.. its in the middle of nowhere!
So fk that.. go out and farm or something.
Raiders will beg greatly improved this season.
With a real OL and batter defense, chargers will get a run for their money in the division.
Chiefs will go 1-15 as Cassel will get picked off three times in the opening game before breaking his sternum and missing the rest of the season since he is so weak from not playing since highschool.
FK KC
Go cali, Oaktown, RAIDERS!
Not really talkin doodoo just stating my opion of the chiefs i never said anything like fk raiders
you guys get offensive and cant talk civil to any chiefs fans you guys jump on any chiefs fan that comes over here to voice an opinion… never said the raiders suck or made fun of you so grow up just like me getting jumped on for posting a fanshot letting you guys know Walter was released excuse me for trying to be nice! oh and its CHIEFS not Cheifs make fun of my farming but atleast I can spell..Petey just wanted to get your guys opinion
Not everyone feels the same way as everyone else around here. I don’t think he was trolling or anything. I answered his questions. I tried to catch every little question in there and responded.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Aug 2, 2009 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Thanks
I threw a couple zingers in and the start of the post but I said I was kidding. I mean whats a post without poking fun at a rival? Wasnt really trying to start a riot or anything haha..
As for FkRaiderHaters…Yeah..there was no ’’doodoo’’ talking going on. I was trying to get some insight as to what is really going on with oakland. The media has had a few good things to say but JaMarcus bein outta shape..a questionable pick in DHB..just wondering how its all UNFOLDING. Who else would know more than a Raider fan? So I came to the source.
Theres plenty going on in MO to talk about. But we’ve talked and talked and talked about it. I’ve looked at S&BP compared to Arrowhead Pride and..well you guys just dont seem as supportive. You wanna know what the Chiefs did yesterday? You’re going to have to click for Older posts atleast 3 times to get there. I wanna know what Oaklands done throughout the whole training camp and its all 1st page.
By the way..City population in Oakland is 420,183 as of 2008. Kansas City..as of 2007..475,830. Oh, and we are over 100 square miles bigger than Oakland is. Not all of Missouri is “Nothing” And Farm jokes..well..they really dont work because California themselves made over 31 BILLION from Farm-Related Sales. Get up on your Agriculture homeboy.
And yes, Cassel is the weakest QB in the league. He was sacked the most last year but man hes the weakest. Look at all those games he missed.
i'm not tryin to knock the city of Kansas city
but you do know having over 100 square miles than oakland just makes everything spread out. you may have more than 50,000 ppl than Oakland but it’s all spread out w/empty land, thus supporting the farm jokes. theirs no arguing Oakland and the surrounding East Bay is a lot more dense than Kc and it’s suburbs.
the 31 billion from farming sales come from the Central Valley, not the bay area…
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
wow
JaMarcus bein outta shape
the dude is 6-5 and stacked with muscle. His frame is built to be big. It’s pretty much all muscle. How else do you think he can throw 50 yards on his knees?
"You'll take my life but I'll take yours too. You'll fire you musket but I'll run you through. So when your waiting for the next attack. You'd better stand there's no turning back"- "The Trooper" by Iron Maiden
by KA1Z3R on Aug 3, 2009 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
naw, 70 yards on his knees
Amazing, Jamarcus Russell hands off to McFadden who pitches it back to Russell who finds Darrius Heyward Bey in the Middle of the Field wide open 30, 20,10,5 Touchdown Raiders! Amazing. This telecast is Brought to you by Cable.
is that true?
I thought it was 50.
"You'll take my life but I'll take yours too. You'll fire you musket but I'll run you through. So when your waiting for the next attack. You'd better stand there's no turning back"- "The Trooper" by Iron Maiden
I’m pretty sure that it was 70 yards.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Aug 3, 2009 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions
lol
he’d have trouble handing off
"You'll take my life but I'll take yours too. You'll fire you musket but I'll run you through. So when your waiting for the next attack. You'd better stand there's no turning back"- "The Trooper" by Iron Maiden
Well,
He is already the tallest dude on the field so handing off to (BushFadden) that is what I call them if there were twins stuck to each other.
Amazing, Jamarcus Russell hands off to McFadden who pitches it back to Russell who finds Darrius Heyward Bey in the Middle of the Field wide open 30, 20,10,5 Touchdown Raiders! Amazing. This telecast is Brought to you by Cable.
oh, well then
even more impressive
"You'll take my life but I'll take yours too. You'll fire you musket but I'll run you through. So when your waiting for the next attack. You'd better stand there's no turning back"- "The Trooper" by Iron Maiden
No, I am pretty sure it is 70 or 60 but, not 50 though
Amazing, Jamarcus Russell hands off to McFadden who pitches it back to Russell who finds Darrius Heyward Bey in the Middle of the Field wide open 30, 20,10,5 Touchdown Raiders! Amazing. This telecast is Brought to you by Cable.
Any of those numbers
is mind blowing!
Let’s hope he actually has plenty of time this year to throw it from his feet!
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
by Rich Langford on Aug 5, 2009 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions
While Russell may be in shape, he admitted to being overweight. I can see why he said that.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Aug 3, 2009 2:26 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
That's no right
Amazing, Jamarcus Russell hands off to McFadden who pitches it back to Russell who finds Darrius Heyward Bey in the Middle of the Field wide open 30, 20,10,5 Touchdown Raiders! Amazing. This telecast is Brought to you by Cable.
If he's stacked with muscle
Then what’s his gut doing stickin out like that?
http://www.chicagotribune.com/media/photo/2009-07/47863234.jpg
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/03WC3rsbFn4VB/261×.jpg
Jeff Garcia looks anorexic compared to JaMarcus.
I never knew “stacked with muscle” meant “pot belly”
Those are just belly pads!
I am hoping he learns how to bust his ass to be a great QB and having a belly certainly does not inspire early confidence. He has the tools and this is going to be a big year for him.
I will say that not only does Garcia look anorexic next to him he looks like a fucking midget. If Jamarcus puts it all together he will be a force and if not, hey i think we will still have a good enough ground game to win more games than the Chiefs until we find someone who does want to succeed in the NFL.
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
by Rich Langford on Aug 4, 2009 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions
Nothing against him
JaMarcus could be an animal..but he doesnt show the desire for it.
honest question
how does a “pot belly” help or hurt one’s throwing arm?
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
Only difference is
He chose to pepper your “questions” with passive aggressive shots at the Raiders on a Raider blog. Now is too late to be the victim here, and civil discussion usually is possible here. I chose not to answer the questions because he decided to be a prick and add little shots here and there…not the way to start a civil discussion on a blog devoted to your rivals.
"..what you mean? I'm a legend like Kareem!"
by CommittedToExcellence on Aug 2, 2009 4:43 PM PDT up reply actions
so true Mr. Excellence
and we do give credit to KC when credit is due, but you’ll find so no such thing about the Raiders on Arrowhead Pride. straight up unsociable environment over there.
"You'll take my life but I'll take yours too. You'll fire you musket but I'll run you through. So when your waiting for the next attack. You'd better stand there's no turning back"- "The Trooper" by Iron Maiden
Unsociable?
Uhh have you seen AP compared to S&BP? You guys have items from a week ago on your front page. The oldest thing on ours? 9 hours ago.
And no..I didnt “pepper questions with passive aggressive shots at the Raiders”
I made 1 joke at the start before the jump when I said “so called football team”..and immediately said I was joking.
Can you point out another “passive aggresive shot at the raiders” for me?
Actually, Tomahawk, discounting for partisan differences,
they’re not that much worse than AP. I see lots of complete sentences, good spelling, and paragraphs. I’m partial to the Chiefs fans, but I see Raider fans in here making no bones about things they DON’T like about their Raiders.
Discounting for homer-ism, there’s an intellectual honesty throughout SBNation that I like.
Of course, the Fader fans are much more optimistic about the Faders’ chances than any sane person would be. But we Chiefs fans suffer a similar insanity.
doesn't everyone?
and seriously, why not, the raiders (and i guess, the chiefs) have just as good a shot as anyone at this point. granted, the odds are against them, but they still have a shot.
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
Oh...and 1 more thing
We’re unsociable…yet a Chiefs fan comes here and asks a few questions and gets more comments than any other FanPost from recently posted or recently active..your 1st page of Recently Posted FanPosts goes back 13 days. AP goes back 4 days. And have a few posts of over 65 comments (This thread..the most popular recent fanpost as far as comments..has 66 after I post this)
Yet we’re “unsociable”
More comments..more posts…more discussion…probably more page hits..man you really hit it perfect..unsociable.
you misunderstood what I meant by unsociable
every time I’ve gone there and seen a Raiders fan make an actual comment, you know with a point and some thought behind it, all I see in regards to his comment is (and I’m paraphrasing) “Raiders suck”, “at least we’re better than the Raiders” (which remains to be seen by the way), any sort of shot at Russell being obese; which he isn’t, “fuck the Raiders/you”, etc
My point is, you’ve created a hostile and fairly rude environment for a Raiders fan and I assume the same is true for fans of any other team but probably to a lesser degree. Thus you’ve created an unsociable environment for non-Chiefs fans.
Now I know you’ll say S&BP is no better. Untrue. In the recent Weekly Raider we got a couple comments from Colts fans and they were welcomed and we said nothing to the effect of what I see on AP. We’ve had Broncos fans on here fairly often and had some truly exciting debates with fans of what is basically everyone’s least favorite team on here. There’s even a Cowboys fan who I always enjoy chatting with and everyone else here welcomes him much the same.
Now yes, your blog is far more active (though I will say much of it is heavily biased, and I will agree that some of our posts are as well but not to the magnitude of AP), but our’s has more of a news site feel to it. The Weekly Raider, the Sunday Community Poll, the DLD’s, makes this a lot like a news site with discussions and whatnot sprinkled in between.
"You'll take my life but I'll take yours too. You'll fire you musket but I'll run you through. So when your waiting for the next attack. You'd better stand there's no turning back"- "The Trooper" by Iron Maiden
by KA1Z3R on Aug 4, 2009 7:01 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly.
There’s a difference between anti social and unsociable.
Win, Lose, or Tie, Raiders til I die!
Speaking on behalf of some of the other APers
we all arent like that everyone has a few smack talkers on the blogs I try to stay civil and I know our Moderater Joel aka Primetime wants us to keep it civil and tells us that over there all the time so I for one just want to talk football and get honest opinions but I can say that I did get tore all up by a couple of you guys when I posted a fanshot just trying to be nice over here I just automatically started getting told off so I just deleted the fanshot (the one about Andrew Walter being released) so like I said everyone has some bad seeds
That's pretty much it.
Every site has some bad apples. In fact, there should be a blog just for them.
I'm here to talk about the past.
I havent seen
A single Raiders fan come over and get Fuck you’s. We have several fans who come through our place too. We’ve talked to Charger and Bronco fans. We’ve had good conversations with Baltimore (our opener) and We’ve had conversations with Miami. We had a guy come in and say he thought we were going to be the next “Miami turn around” Now I dont fully agree with what the guy was saying..but it was a great topic to discuss. The Chiefs do have work to do but the fact that we have a new, hardnosed regime makes it much more exciting.
Isn't the passion of rivalries what makes football great?
When an outsider comes in and asks for opinions on the Raiders, I think it is logical to assume that most everyone will have something to comment on. Most of the responses on here were factually based.
Most fanposts are in the spirit of sharing information and do not leave the kind of room, for open discussions, that yours did. I think the debate between fans of teams is fun and usually leads to more discussions than the fans of the same team.
Your tongue and cheek post certainly posed some legitimate questions which I think got answered and also drew some criticism back your way, since as I said, it sure seems as if you were throwing stones from a glass cassel.
Tomahawk44 seems much more prone to an open minded conversation than you. By the way I am still waiting for your reply on the nature of contracts.
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
by Rich Langford on Aug 4, 2009 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions
Im not sure
What you guys took as “throwing stones from a glass cassel” but whatever it was..wasnt intentional. Except for the 1st joke that I pointed out myself before the jump.
I’m very open minded and up for discussion on many topics BUT…I cant stand when people try to make comments on things they dont know about. Have I claimed anything about the Raiders being this or that? No. I asked questions about the Raiders in attempt to find out. The only Raiders games I watched last year were the 2 KC games. I dont have a clue what your offensive/defensive lines are like. I dont know what your LB’s are like. Thats why I havent tried to make claims such as “this guy is undersized” or “that guy is too slow” like you did about Hali and our NT’s.
Now yes, you hit the NT’s right on the button. We’ve discussed that topic alot at AP and we have high hopes for Tank Tyler. But questioning the speed of Hali was ridiculous. He was fast for a DE before he lost weight…I cant imagine what hes like now. dropping 10 or 15lbs makes a big difference. And if someone says it doesnt, then theres a contradiction because Tank Tyler is only at 15lbs small of a good sized NT (Wilfork..325. Tank..310) And that was last year. I dont know if hes been asked to bulk up or not but I’m sure he has.
Like Naq said..I dont mind a little shit talking either. But I didnt come here for that. I REALLY wanted to know what the Raiders are looking like heading into the season. We split games last year, and I know the Chiefs have made numerous upgrades that have alot of us KC fans more excited than any other season in recent years. In the Marty/Dick days we were a Veterans team. Then Herm came in and wanted a homegrown team throught he draft. Neither worked. Now we have a good combination of Veteran leadership and up and coming talent with lots of potential. Do you realize how many high round picks have been spent on Defense in the last 3 years? Not a single one has been considered a bust. Hali is the closest thing we have to a bust and we will see how he does this year.
Fast for a defensive end is slow...
for a linebacker. The dude runs a 4.8 40. And here this is actually a quote from your very own AP
In fact, Hali is well on his way to being at best a mediocre run defender that might be too small as a 3-4 defensive end but not quite quick enough as a 3-4 linebacker.
Your tone, in your original posting, when posing questions certainly comes across in a taunting nature. And many of the things you brought up with the Raiders, I see the Chiefs struggling with as well- hence the glass Cassel. You did claim things about Raiders like
I was really threatened when he was drafted but I knew it would take time for him to develop but this guy has some SERIOUS conditioning issues and a questionable attitude. Seems like hes taking his money and running with it.
or
I know Al Davis is in love with speed… From what I have read, DHB is struggling to catch the ball in camp. Is that surprising? I’m not so sure that it is his nerves..the guy is more of a track guy/athlete than a football player
or
I can see the occasional rocket downfield since he has such a cannon but Im not so sure anyone can make a play on the ball.
or
Who in the world is Mitchell? I remember watching the draft and someone from ESPN said he had a list of the top 250 players in the draft and Mitchell was nowhere to be found. Not saying he cant play, he may be a true Gem, BUT why would Davis take him so high? From what I’ve read, nobody really knew who this kid was before he was called on draft day. I gotta admit, I was laughing my ass off watching Al Davis screw up time and time again but that was just too much.
I have no problems with you saying any of these things, but these are the things that prompted the returns they did and the kinds of things you seemed to have forgotten when you asked if you claimed anything about the Raiders being this or that.
As far as people making comments on things they don’t know about, I am still waiting for your justification of your statements about contracts.
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
by Rich Langford on Aug 4, 2009 7:31 PM PDT up reply actions
So tell me
Do you know what Hali did during the offseason? I dont. Knowing he would be moved to LB, dont you think he would shed some weight and work on his speed? I’m sure he’s able to figure that out. As a Rush OLB, how much faster should be really be? Hes lined up just a few feet outside and back a bit. Speed as an OLB is usually talked about due to having to cover. Hali is fast ENOUGH to cover the flat. Thats what he will be doing probably 90% of the time. Rushing or covering the Flat. Hes not going to be used as a drop-back-and-cover OLB. One thing you must have overlooked at AP is how his transition to OLB has been. New flash. Its been pretty good.
I’m not going to repost them, but Ill address them in each order of the comments you pointed out that I made..that are “throwing stones”
I was threatened when he was drafted. He was said to be the most talented in the class. The guy could launch a ball like 65 yards from his knee. But his leadership was questioned and since has displayed he has some serious questions. Thus far, I dont see anything wrong with it. “taking his money and running with it”…is that what you consider throwing a stone? Thats a pretty weak..
DHB was said to be a risk BEFORE he was drafted. Now hes having trouble catching the ball. Honestly, is that a surprise? Thats my question. its not a shot at him or the Raiders, its a legit statement. Davis is in love with speed..we all know that. Why not take Maclin instead? Hes fast too and has a better chance to succeed.
Who can make a play on the ball? What receivers does Oakland have? Also a legit question. Not sure how you see that as a shot.
As for Mitchell, my opening question is the same thing all the draft experts were saying when he was picked. I read up on him and saw the Bears were interested too. Dude hits hard. He has a few interceptions on his highlight videos but that doesnt mean hes good in coverage. I dont know much about him other than ALOT of people didnt know much about him.
The end of it..well..alright I’ll give you that one.
As for the contracts. Its late and I’m not going to get into it right now. I’ll get back to you tomorrow. I will say, the contract is front loaded, (40 out of 63 mil over the 1st 3 years) which gives us flexibility in the future in case Cassel does not work out. The Chiefs are 30 million dollars under the cap (or were at the time Cassel was signed). There is a minimum and we were not meeting it. We NEEDED to throw some money out there. So we threw it out on Cassel. It doesnt hurt our Salary cap for the future since we will be spending the next 2 years finding out if (hopefully he does well enough in the 1st year to put an end to the speculation) Cassel is the QB we want him to be. If Cassel doesnt work out, he’ll take up some space in the 3rd year of his contract and probably be battling out his starting position with another QB but it’d only be that 1 year and then we could cut/trade him at a small cost.
Had we kept Cassel on the 1 year franchise and played well, we would have owed him 14-15 million this year, then signed him to a contract worth god knows how much more.
Its a low risk move. Big numbers in a contract, but alot less of a risk than the 2 junior QB’s coming out of college. And I’m definately happier with Cassel’s contract than I would be with Russells contract.
Cassel threw for 3693 yards, 21 TDs, 11 INT’s, threw 3 or more td’s in 5 games, threw for 400 yards in back to back games, had 7 games over a 100 qb rating, never threw more than 2 picks in a game and helped carry the Patriots to an 11-5 record.
When Cassel was hurt, everyone thought the patriots season was over. When Cassel struggled early on in the season, they said he wasnt good enough. He couldnt lead the Patriots. He stepped up, took on the work horse leadership role that Brady had been playing and succeeded. Then those same naysayers came back and said “oh hes a product of a system, he had a great OL and great WR’s..anyone could have succeeded in that position”
Tom Brady’s protection broke down on him and he got hurt. Cassel was sacked ALOT. In the start of the season..they said it was because he held the ball too long. But later in the season, he started running because his OL wasnt protecting him. His sacks were a problem later in the season too. Hmm..maybe that “great pats OL” has gone over the hill?
If theres something more specific you were looking for an answer about, then let me know and I’ll get back to you tomorrow.
Sweet Pete did you or did you not...
ask the question “Did I claim anything about the Raiders in you first post?” I felt this was absurd since you claimed many things. I did not say they were valid or invalid, those questions had already been answered very well by rated r superstar. What I did feel was obviously invalid, was you trying to claim you did not make any claims about the Raiders.
The term throwing stones from a glass house also does not refer to the validity of the comments from the originator, but from the fact that the originator should not make statements about something of which they themselves are guilty of.
You are just coming across as an argumentative sort that makes points that don’t really match the rebuttals for the sake of feeling right.
The deal Cassel signed is front loaded. There is absolutely no scenario that he could play for six years and get 28 million, as you claimed. When players fulfill their contracts they typically make near the entire value.
The Chiefs could have let Cassel play out on the franchise tag, and would have had to pay him the same amount they are paying him now, for this season. I believe the chances that he will increase his value beyond what they signed him for are slim. He would have to have a pro bowl/mvp season.
As I mentioned the Raiders had no options when signing Jamarcus to his contract. I believe the jury is still out on both QB’s and this will be a huge year for both of them. I do not believe, however the Chiefs were wise in signing Cassel to a long term deal. They were betting against the percentages.
As far as Hali, in regards to speed, I could care less what he did in the offseason, if a player knocks off .1 of a second off of a 40 time it would be amazing and everyone would be hollering for a drug test. If he busted his ass in the offseason to develop an inside pass rush move, that is a different story, those kinds of gains are easier to make, and please provide some evidence of this.
Also I am just confused now, I thought the Chiefs were switching to the 3-4 and wanted to bolster their anemic pass rushing by utilizing the OLB’s, as most 3-4 schemes do, yet you are saying that Hali is going to be spending %90 of his time covering the flat? And that an OLB’s speed is not important for pass rushing. Maybe they are banking on the aging and slowing Vrabel providing all the pass rushing, or from the as of yet unsigned Jackson to provide it from the line.
Speaking of first round picks DHB had a wonderful PM practice yesterday, catching everything and impressing everyone. If you would like to see further evidence of this please visit our own Rated R Superstars blog DLD training camp overview.
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
by Rich Langford on Aug 5, 2009 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions
On Cassel
I am glad that we did sign him sooner than Manning now did you see the money he got? DAMN I know Cassel wouldnt of even touched that but I do think he would of got more than he did…
So you honestly think Cassel is going to have a pro bowl season?
Which is what I think it would take for him to get more money that what he already signed for.
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
by Rich Langford on Aug 5, 2009 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions
Doubtful
Considering we are still rebuilding.
Later down the road? Its possible.
And if that happens, we wont have to worry about a big time contract in the offseason. He’ll already be locked up.
If he doesnt, we can rid him after year 3.
This is why the contract was a bad decision
It would take a pro bowl type season to exceed the value at which he is currently signed. The Chiefs are not saving anything this year in on his contract vs. having him play under the franchise tag. After the season the Chiefs would be able to make a more informed decision on Cassel’s worth. Under his current contract, after three years when the value starts to drop, if he has exceeded his value he would likely hold out anyway. By signing him now the only benefit I see is a massage of the ego and a show of confidence- a thank you, we really like you and we want you to be around.
The bottom line is they did not have to do this, they save no money this year, tied up cap space for the future, and gain little more stability than what they would have had anyway. If Cassel exceeds everyone’s expectations this year and outperforms his value this deal will work out, but that is a long shot and even then it will likely only end up being a three year deal. Even if this does happen it does not mean this was a wise decision. When someone wins money on a longshot, it is generally considered luck not wisdom.
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
by Rich Langford on Aug 6, 2009 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions
I think its Wisdom
When Brady, McDaniels, Belichick, Pioli, and anybody else around the league have said that Cassel was not a product of a system.
In New England..when they struggled..he wasnt good enough. The Patriots season was over, good luck next year.
But then…he started to play well. He started putting wins on the board. You are telling me than ANY QB could have gone into NE and posted back to back 400 yard games? I doubt it.
When he started to play well, all those same guys who said he wasnt good enough in NE, turned around and said hes a product of the system.
Maybe we wanted a 3 year deal. Maybe we’re giving him 3 years to prove his worth. I mean, hes not going to sign a 3 year deal. And we sure as hell arent going to Franchise him for 2 years. So why not give him big money now, committ to him, and give him confidence as you suggested, and in 3 years, if hes not the answer, we can rid him?
It wouldnt make sense to franchise him 2 years in a row. It also wouldnt make since to give him a long term contract after 1 season, not knowing if his success or failure would continue.
Im not saying I dont understand your POV on the contract. I agree with you in the sense that its alot of money to an unproven guy. It happens every year with guys coming out of the draft. So how can you question giving those guys big contracts just because they are coming out of college, but cant give a big contract to a guy who has a year of NFL experience under his belt, along with 4 years behind Tom Brady, and 4 years behind 2 college QB’s who were the best in college during their times? (moreso Palmer, but Leinart was good in college too)
Because as I have said several times... and I guess must say again
There are no other options with the contracts of draft choices. The Chiefs had options with Cassel and for the reasons stated above it is why I think it is foolish. It is a matter of circumstance and percentages. I do not think he will drive up his value and there are few benefits to signing him this year.
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
by Rich Langford on Aug 6, 2009 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions
It doesnt matter
about options with draft choices. The point is, hes played MORE than draft choices, and received LESS than draft choices.
Even if he does not drive up his value, its still..like you said..a 3 year deal more than anything. No matter what happend, he would have made 15 million this year.
Next year, he would have either A. signed a big time contract because he performed well under the Franchise, B. Franchised again, or C. didnt play well with a lack of supporting cast to blame and a stand off with the agent on that excuse alone. Thats too much distraction. By signing him now, we obviously arent losing money this year. I understand thats not whats it question. The future, is the question.
So next year, whether he signs a big contract on franchise or a deal, he likely would have been paid 10+ anyway because he was 1 year removed from a great season on a team with little supporting cast. Thats excellent standing ground for his agent.
Years 1 and 2 of his contract would have exceeded 10 million no matter what. Year 3 of his contract is the only year in question. Year 3 is the trouble year IF he doesnt perform. But he’ll likely have a shot to redeem himself in year 3, provided he doesnt do well the first 2 years.
I think thats pretty smart. I dont want to sign you to a long term contract, so I’m going to give you a front loaded contract so that I can easily cut you if you dont pan out within 3 years. A cheaper option than Franchising for 2 years, or Franchising for 1 year and having a possible hold out next year.
I don't think many GM's would have given him that contract this year...
let alone next year, if he under performs his value. It wouldn’t matter what his agent says. You give contracts based on market value. This year the Chiefs were bidding against themselves because he was already signed.
It does matter about options with draft choices, because those are the factors in determining if the contract was wise or not.
We both agreed he will probably not be a pro bowler which in turn means he is not likely to drive up his value. At which point the Chiefs would likely be able to sign him to a contract more beneficial to the Chiefs, because I do not see other teams rushing out to pay him 10+
QB’s and professional athletes need to be able to deal with distractions and rise above them. I want my QB to be able to handle the pressure of working towards a deal.
If he’s cut after three years there will still be a cap hit in the fourth.
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
by Rich Langford on Aug 6, 2009 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions
The cap hit
will be MUCH smaller in the 4th year. I dont want my QB having ANY off the field distractions, and neither should you. I want him to be focused on football, not on his contract.
No. His agent simply has too much to stand on. Do you know what Jackson’s agent is saying? He’s claiming Tyson Jackson should get Matt Ryan money because they were drafted in the same slot. If an agent can say something absurd like that, its not out of line to hold out because of a lack of supporting cast.
The agent has too much ground to stand on. You dont go from throwing 3500+ yards, 20+ tds with 11 picks, to the exact same output with a lesser team. Of course hes not going to produce as well. But if he goes out, puts up 3000 yards, 15 tds and 15 picks…which arent that great of stats and would be considered under value..his agent can easily say that with a supporting cast, he would be an allstar, so no, we wont accept anything less than this amount.
Is that a far fetched scenario? No..its a very real scenario.
In the open market it does not matter what an agent says.
It is what teams are willing to pay. If you do not have a contract you are not holding out… you are just unemployed. I do not know of a player, who is not in the twilight of his career, who would just sit out a season pouting because no teams are paying him what he feels he is worth.
Drafted rookies are not open to bidding and that is why you get these hurtful standoff’s. They base what their contract value should be on just the things Jackson’s agents are. I think the league needs to limit rookie contracts. The situation has gotten out of control and detrimental to everyone but the agents.
I want my QB to feel like he has to earn his money and prove himself and thrive under that pressure. If my QB cannot handle the distraction of playing for a contract then I don’t want that QB.
Without studying Cassel’s contract, but using other similar situation, if they cut Cassel before his fourth season, they would not save any cap space as opposed to having him on the roster. It would not be until the fifthe year that they began to see some cap relief.
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
by Rich Langford on Aug 6, 2009 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions
honestly
i hate how rookies (like Russell, Stafford, Long) get those HUGE contracts before playing a down in the NFL, but it’s a lot better than not getting the high draft picks at all.
what’s your thinking on that? Would you rather teams not sign their top draft picks? I just wanna hear your opinion on it, because, it’s tough to justify giving that much money to such a high pick, but most teams have to cave in because the rookie is given all the leverage in negotiations.
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
If you guys havent heard
we signed Tyson Jackson …I dont know the details but they say hes the highest paid Chief ever….
Back to Back 400 yard games
Jets:400 3 touchdowns and 0 Interceptions
Miami(who had a pretty good d):415 yards 3 touchdowns and 1 interception
my impression off you and petey's statements
the chiefs had so much cap room to burn that they felt obligated to spend some on him. but if there’s so much cap room why not just let cassel play the franchise tag out, prove himself, and if he succeeds give him a fat contract.
you might pay him more than you would with this deal. but in my scenario you pay more money for a sure thing. not a bad idea, considering you have 30 million (that’s what petey said, rite?)dollars of cap space
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
We had alot of room to make up for, yes
We were about 30 mil under the cap. I’m not exactly sure what the minimum is but I think its around 15 million. We got Cassel who took up that room, plus we have 1 year deals on most of the Vets we acquired.
What if he doesnt succeed? What if he seems to be doing well, but can only do so much because of this terrible supporting cast that you think we have? How do you treat that? Its hard to judge a player who depends on so many others to succeed. Was David Carr a bad QB? Who knows..if he would have had protection and a decent coach, he may have been pretty good but we’ll never know.
No matter what, he was going to get paid bigtime this year. If he doesnt do well, his agent can easily pull the supporting cast card, just as you have, and say he hasnt had a chance to prove his worth. So then what? Franchise him again? I think not. But its still worth giving him a try with an improved team isnt it? Do you throw him away if he doesnt immediately succeed? So now you have a dilemma, possible hold-out next year. By locking him up now, we can pay him big for this year and next. By the 3rd year, he’ll still be getting paid big and if he hasnt shown anything for it, then yes. For 1 season, we will have a big cap hit for a nonimpact player. 1 season. Im willing to take that risk. After these 3 years, it wont cost too much to cut/trade him.
it's hard to disagree with most of your points
and no one will ever know about David Carr…but it wasn’t like he was w/o weapons. he did have andre johnson. and what about jabar gaffney, how’s he doin in NE (honestly, i have no idea)?
Letting Cassel play out the franchise tag has it’s risks, for sure. like if he outplays it by a lot, the chiefs would have to give up a lot more money than they did with his current deal. He could also fail and still demand the same amount of money for “poor supporting cast”.
but if he fails, and the chiefs get stuck w/ a top 5-10 draft pick, why not build towards the future and draft a premier QB (there’ll be quite a few, right?) I’m not under the belief that the Cassel deal is just a horrible deal that’s inevitably going to fail. I’m still skeptical about how he will do outside of NE. And I will until I see him succeed in games for KC
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
Like I said to noontide..
I definately understand where people get the idea that he shouldnt have signed. To be honest, I was against the Matt Cassel trade at first. I didnt know Matt Cassel. Knew nothing about him other than what NE did. But when he became a Chief, My eyes were glued. I was looking for anything..ANYTHING to bash him for. I used to say if you put Thigpen in NE, he’da done well too. But after researching Cassel more, and seeing what he did in some of those games, theres no way Thigpen could have done what Cassel did.
He did have Andre Johnson. But Johnson was it. I dont really remember much about the Texans..dont really watch them. But I do know they had a piss poor OL for YEARS and David Carr was constantly getting smacked. Constantly. Doesnt matter how many weapons you have if you dont have enough time to throw to them.
I have no clue about Gaffney. I just looked him up..his top receiving season was 632 yards.
There were risks involved both ways. We could Franchise him and get backed into a corner and have to franchise him again, or commit to him. Instead of waiting a year to tell him “Youre the man”, we did it now. I believe that QB’s..especially young ones..have 2 years to get out of the way, the 3rd year..if you dont see progression..then hes done. Thats why I like this deal because it gives him exactly 3 years to get his shit together in KC. Do I expect him to play up to his 15 million this year? No..but he was going to get it anyway. Do I think its possible? Of course. Do I think he could play his worth next year? Definately.
One of you Raiders fans (not sure who and im not sifting through nearly 200 comments to find out) said the Raiders and Chiefs rivalry is about to get interesting. Denvers gone down the shitter, and SD..well..Norv Turner has his affect on his teams..:-)
Anyways, I think the Chiefs are rebuilding pretty well. I really do hope the Raiders are rebuilding well too. Like I said before..I absolutely HATE Denver. John Elway burned my toast a few too many times. Shannon Sharpe was always runnin his mouth. The Broncos CHEATED by greasing (with vaseline I beleive) in the playoffs against us. The officials discovered it 10 minutes into the game, and STILL didnt DQ them. They went on to beat us. Shannon Sharpe said after the game that “We came in here, ate their crackers, drank their wine, and left without even sayin Thank You” ooooo I despise the Broncos.
Even with the strong QB class coming out next year, I wouldnt be comfortable with giving Cassel ONE year to prove himself, then going out and drafting a top 10 QB next year. Pioli built OL and DL in NE and went from there. After he built the lines, he built the Defense. They had a gem in Brady who was used as a game manager. Lots of short passes, screens, and running the ball. They started a Dynasty. Throughout the Dynasty, he started building the Offense. Next thing you know, Brady is a top 5 QB, they had the best OL in football. Then Moss showed up and all hell broke loose. They had a top offense AND defense in the league.
He started building the DL this draft. Next year, OL overhaul. Albert is the only sure thing we have on the OL after this season. If not the OL, then definately with LB’s.
i would say that's fair
i think it’s still worth considering a top QB prospect, but even if Cassel fails, i guess you could draft one and give him some bench time before throwing him to the lions (you said he was easy to cut after year 3, right?)
I also think that if your guy, Pioli wants to get it done, you gotta stick by him, because he’s gonna be the main reason to the Chiefs success or lack there of for the next couple of years atleast. he must’ve seen something in Cassel when he was there in NE, right?
i’ll still be skeptical the same I was/will be about Matt Stafford,Jamarcus russell, Brady quinn, Matt Ryan, etc, etc, etc.
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
Yes..
I did ask the question on what I said about the Raiders. I did not CLAIM anything about the Raiders that was or was not true. I was ASKING QUESTIONS, or stating facts that can be sourced. I did not make ANY claims against the Raiders that simply arent true. Rated R Superstar answered questions and barely backed up his points. But I didnt refute ANYTHING that he said. YOU were the one who came onto the post saying that I was throwing stones and taking shots at the Raiders.
What statements did I make about something which I am guilty of? About the contracts..I said “If he plays for us 6 years, hes guaranteed 28 million plus a BASE Salary.” Which is true. If he were to be cut, we would still owe him 28 million dollars which would count against the cap. But hes not going to be cut. So each year, hes going to see a chunk of that 28 million guaranteed plus his base salary. The way you are talking about the contract, you are making it seem that we owe him 28 million bucks at the time of the signing.
Most players don’t see all the money in the contract because they dont perform to the same level as they did when they signed the contract. That is why players are asked to renegotiate contracts and if they won’t they get released or traded. You also have performance incentives that take away from the total contract if they dont meet the criteria. Tom Brady’s contract was HUGE before they asked him to renegotiate so they could get Moss. Was his performance slipping? There was no evidence of that. But they got out of the contract they previously signed, didnt they?
For instance, Jared Allen’s contract when he signed with Minnesota. I’m sure theres an incentive for him reaching 10 sacks each year. Say he steadily drops off. He hit like 14.5 sacks last year I think. Say he hits 11 this year. 9 the next. No incentive. 7 the next. No incentive. But Minnesota is still paying an arm and a leg for him and hes clearly shown a decline. Theyre going to try to renegotiate or trade him.
I said “He gets a low of 28 million and a high of 63 million” So I now see why you are saying that I claimed he could play 6 years and get 28 million. That’s not what I meant by that quote. Right before that line, was the line I said he gets 28 plus a BASE. What I meant is that no matter what happens, we owe him 28 million, reguardless of how many years hes year. If he plays the ENTIRE contract, and meets EVERY incentive, then yes, he’ll get 63 million. It just doesnt typically happen.
A breakdown of his contract is found here: http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2009/7/23/960076/breakdown-of-matt-cassels-base
He gets 43.25 million in Base Salary throughout 6 years. That leaves roughly 20 million in Bonus’s. His Base Salary in 2011 (the year we have to pay him that 7.5 million or whatever) is only 4.75 Million.
I’m not arguing because I want to “feel like im right” I’m arguing because I think you are misinterpreting what Im saying about his contract. I’m not stupid enough to think that he can play 6 years and only make 28 million when 15 million is going to be paid out this year alone. You think that I would believe hes going to get 13 million over 5 years? No..I wouldnt.
Contracts are complicated. I dont like discussing contracts. All I know, is that we gave him a front loaded contract that gives us flexibility in the future IF he fails. Josh McD and Pioli both knew how good Cassel was and both wanted him. And dont pull this “media created” BS on me.
Thats your own Head Coach praising Cassel for everything. He wanted Cassel for a reason.
I will admit, Hali has to develop an inside move. He tries to use his speed to beat the OT outside, resulting in alot of over pursuit. And AGAIN, you misunderstood what I said….“Thats what he (hali) will be doing probably 90% of the time. Rushing or covering the Flat” …Rushing..as in the QB..OR covering the flat. Hes going to be doing 1 of the 2 atleast 90% of the time. I doubt he does ANY drop back coverage at all. Hes going to be a rushing OLB most of the time, and cover the flat when he needs to. Maybe pickup a FB or TE in coverage but I doubt it.
Also, your comment about reducing a 40 time by .1 of a second is irrelevant. How often, as an OLB, do you get up to full speed while rushing the QB? Not often. You have blockers to get around, moves to make, you dont get many dead sprints at someone. I’m saying 40 times dont matter. McFadden ran a 4.3 and Pollard ran a 4.5 but Pollard caught McFadden from behind in the open field. 40 times only provide insight, but dont tell the whole story. Even if Hali improves by .1 or .2, hes still FASTER than what he was before.
So far, Camp reports say that we’re using a variety of blitz packages. Thats whats so great about the 3-4 is you can run all different kinds of blitz’s and not have the same look constantly. DJ had 8 sacks in 2 years. Its funny because he was only asked to blitz during the start of those years then he was pulled back into coverage. Why? Because Herm Edwards wouldnt let Gunther pull the trigger. Herm was too conservative and wanted LB’s to stay in coverage. DJ can blitz, Vrabel can blitz, Hali can blitz, and I dont think Thomas probably wont do much blitzing.
Congrats to DHB.
One thing I think is funny is you Raider fans are talking about how stupid KC is for giving Cassel that contract..lets talk about Raiders contacts.
Deangelo Hall. 7 years, 72 million? Then they cut him?! Wow. Javon Walker. 6 years, 55 million? What did he do last year? I hope he steps it up and EARNS his money this year..you guys still have him right? Tommy Kelly, 7 years, 55 million? Okay, so he had 55 tackles and 4.5 sacks. Not too shabby.
Again I was not talking about the validity of your points
but the fact that you made claims, which you were saying you did not do. Many of the claims that you made about the Raiders, the Chiefs are guilty of as well. And I feel those have been pointed out.
Most contracts contain incentives that are easily attainable, for salary cap purposes. Many contracts are not fulfilled because the players get cut and when they are signed many of those contracts are not expected to run their full term, this is done again for salary cap purposes and is something I had already pointed out. Brady is a welcomed exception to this.
Again the Chiefs had options when signing Cassel to that contract. If they were worried about leaving flexibility to get out of the contract why not let him play under the franchise tag this year, and then decide on a contract for him?
No doubt the Raiders have signed some bad contracts. They just spent the last off season eradicating many of these problems. Hall gone, Javon giant pay cut, and we are all hoping Kelley earns his money through out his contract.
40 times are a measure of speed so I used it as a basis for us to discuss Hali’s lack of it. It is certainly not an end all be all. If Hali is .1 or .2 faster in the 40, which would be a minor miracle, he at this point is still suspect for being too slow with his displayed skills to be an effective OLB pass rusher.
The Chiefs LB’s are not going to keep any offensive lineman awake at nights fearing the task of pass blocking them.
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
by Rich Langford on Aug 5, 2009 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Validity
I made claims based on facts. I did NOT make outrageous claims that arent true. The only point I was making about that is that I did not come in here, make assumptions and say The Raiders suck at this, or suck at that. I simply questioned, and asked about, issues currently surrounding the raiders. I think you are taking my words and putting them into different context as to what I mean. For instance, saying Cassel wont succeed because hes not in NE is a CLAIM that you have made that is not supported by FACT. You can say he didnt have this or that, but until he gets on the field, you dont have factual evidence that he wont make it. THAT is what I meant by making claims.
I didnt come in here and FALSE claims..is that better?
Say we played Cassel under the Franchise and he doesnt do well because of the OL. What do we do then? We cant give him a shitty contract if hes 1 year removed from a great season coming into a shitty situation. So then what? Franchise him again? After the contract Eli and Rivers are about to sign, the cost of QB’s to be franchised is about to go up. Signing a contract now or later REALLY wouldnt have made a difference because his future is not going to be based on 1 year on a rebuilding team.
I will say one thing. There was a debate between Nanz and someone else over at Mile High Report about how the McDaniels-Cutler-Cassel was blown up by the media and McDaniels never wanted Cassel. I guess I crossed wires and brought that up on my last post, so disregaurd the “your own head coach” part of the comment. But that goes to show that even his Offensive Coordinator is sold on Cassel.
So how is it fair for you to ridicule the Chiefs for giving Cassel a big contract after all the massive contracts you have handed out?
40 times are a measure of TOP SPEED. It has nothing to do with quickness, agility, acceleration. Of course, acceleration is important in a 40 but its not a good way to test acceleration but acceleration is judged better in the Shuttle Run. Coaches, Scouts, and Players will tell you that 40 times simply give insight into potential. Larry Fitz doesnt run a fast 40 time, yet he gets down field and makes big catches because of his athleticism (sp?) Brandon Flowers doesnt run a fast 40 for a CB but hes all over the field. You cant judge a DE/OLB overall speed based on a 40 because they dont get up to full sprint for long distances very often.
Again I did NOT comment on the validity of your claims
nor did I say Cassel would not succeed because he was no longer in New England. I pointed out the claims you did make, claims you just said you made, actually. Even though earlier you posed a rhetorical question asking if you made any claims.
After a year you would have much more information to make a decision on the kind of contract to give Cassel. I think he is going to have a hard time driving up his market value past what the chiefs paid for him. I do not see this as a move that playing the percentages.
FYI Franchise contracts go up the second year the same player is franchised regardless of the market.
I do not agree with all the moves the Raiders make and I did not agree with the Chiefs move of giving Cassel that contract. You came in here and made your claims sorry “questions” about the Raiders so I felt compelled to point out some of the Chiefs poor decisions.
40 times have nothing to do with quickness? That is absurd. The reason 40 times are used in football is because they measure quickness and acceleration more than top speed. Most people have not even reached top speed by 40 yards.
I have already said that 40 times are not the end all be all, but it was one point used as a basis for us to discuss the point that Hali has not appeared fast enough to play a rushing OLB in a 3-4. A point made by others, including others on your site. At least that was a measurable thing I brought to the table. I have not seen any measurables from you to suggest he is fast enough.
Saying Laryy Fitzgerald does not have an amazing 40 time and is still good tells me something that is obvious and absolutely nothing about Hali’s chances.
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
by Rich Langford on Aug 5, 2009 7:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Short answer
Claims are different than questions. I was asking questions based on claims by the media. End of story.
You didnt point out a poor decision. You pointed out a potentially poor decision. If Cassel goes out and performs well, whether it be this year or next, it wont be such a poor decision will it? If he lives up to his contract, hes not going to hit against the cap too much in years 4, 5, and 6 is he?
Dude. If it takes you 40 yards to reach top speed, something is wrong with you. That is 120 feet. Most people cant reach top speed in 120 feet?
So youre telling me that basketball players can get to top speed in well under 90 somethin feet (80 somethin in college)..and its not like it takes them the full court to do so.. but football players dont reach top speed in the 40 yard dash? THAT is absurd.
If McFadden breaks off a run and hits open field and has no tacklers whatsoever on or near him and his path to the endzone, that 40 yards later, hes not at full speed?
In baseball, when players run 90 feet to 1st base, they dont hit full speed? Wow. That…is just..flat out..wrong.
Speed is measured by 40 times, acceleration is measured by the Shuttle Run, and the Cone drill measures quickness and agility. There is a difference between quicknesss and speed. If you think about what you do in those drills, you can easily figure out why and how each drill is used to measure each aspect.
You just said you were making claims in a previous post.
And I reposted claims you made. Now you are just going in circles.
It is a poor decision because they did not play the percentages. If he lives up to that huge contract the first three years what is he most likely to do in year 4?… Holdout. But the odds are stacked against him exceeding his value this year.
AGAIN I brought up 40 time as one point to support a fact, a point others and myself had made by observation of an on field performance, that Hali is not fast enough to be an effective pass rushing OLB in the 3-4. Show me something that disproves it.
Since you seem eager to talk about max speed though, here
Top sprinters reach top speed at about 60 meters, though beginners reach their relatively lower maximum speed much sooner. Exit velocity for Ben Johnson in Seoul at the 30 meter point was 11.76 MPS. His peak speed in the same race was achieved at 60 meters at 12.2 MPS, with an average speed of 12.05 MPS between 50 and 70 meters.
I found this at http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/high_octane_training_2
Haven’t you ever seen Usain Bolt race. Or have you not watched enough baseball to see people still excelarating as they get to first or have you not seen the highlight of Bo Jackson running 90 yards in the Kingdome and picking up speed well past the 30 yard mark?
What exactly is the 40 a measure of again? I would say in light of this it is more a matter of acceleration and quickness.
Just a suggestion, but next time you think something is flat out wrong… doubt yourself.
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
by Rich Langford on Aug 6, 2009 1:35 AM PDT up reply actions
You can drop the claims
because you took what I initially meant by making claims and flipped it around. When I originally said I wasnt making claims, I was thinking that in a sense that I did not generate anything against the Raiders. I was QUESTIONING claims that have ALREADY been made. I did not INITIATE claims. I POINTED them out said hey..is this true? Or what do you think of that?
Again, it doesnt matter if he exceeds his value this year, because he was going to get paid the same. NEXT YEAR is the question. NEXT YEAR he could have held out no matter if he succeeds or doesnt succeed. His agent has too much ground to stand on to allow a small contract after the Franchise year.
From http://www.net-news-daily.com/?s=VC_Pop22n
“Regardless of what some critics may believe, this measurement of speed, depending on position, does have an impact on draft status.”
From http://bleacherreport.com/articles/127822-what-is-the-40-yard-dash-at-the-nfl-scouting-combine
“A true depiction (of actual player mobility) would be an obstacle course with mazes accompanied by stop and start movements such as the short shuttle and the 20-yard cone which are better measures of that player’s mobility, and overall acceleration, agility, momentum, power, and force.”
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/40-yard_dash
“The 40-yard dash is a sprint covering 40 yards (36.576 m). It is primarily run to evaluate the speed of football players by scouts, particularly for the NFL Draft but also for collegiate recruiting”
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20_yard_shuttle
“The 20-yard shuttle, also simply called the short shuttle, is a test performed by American football athletes at the NFL combine. It is primarily run to evaluate the quickness and change-of-direction ability of players by scouts”
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3_cone_drill
“The 3 cone drill, or three cone drill, is a test performed by American football athletes at the NFL combine. It is primarily run to evaluate the agility, quickness and fluidity of movement of players by scouts”
Hmmmmmmmm yeah..the 40 yard dash is a dead sprint. SPEED. The shuttle run is rapid acceleration and deceleration. Thats why its used to measure acceleration. The cone drill is alot of stop, turn and go movement, thus used to meansure quickness and agility.
Next time you wanna pull articles to prove your point, pull articles related to the same sport. Of course long distance sprinters are going to have a top speed later in the race. They are trained that way. Its called a closing burst of speed. They run NEAR top speed until near the end where they DO run top speed to edge out other sprinters who may be tired because they WERE running full speed the whole time.
Based on that, YOU..are flat out wrong.
Oh, and since I figured you would try to say Wikipedia isnt accurate..
http://www.nfl.com/combine/workouts
40 yard dash measures speed and explosion
Shuttle measures Lateral Quickness and explosion
3 cone drill measures change of direction at high speed aka agility.
I agree that the 40 yard dash has a PLAY in acceleration, but its biggest point of emphasis is speed.
I never commented on what other drills were measurments of.
But good job proving a point that was not being discussed. Planes are faster than trains… Oh Yeah take that!
Show me some of those times, or anything else that suggest Hali is fast enough.
You said that people, when running, reach their top speed within a certain distance- at that point we were not talking about a certain sport we were talking about people running and reaching the top speed. So I pulled the first article I saw with measurements of when top speeds are reached. You did not provide any sources to counter this information and yet you want to question mine?
Your analysis of sprinters is absurd. You are telling me that sprinters get tired in the 100 so they do not run their fastest in the beginning? And you think the 100 is a long distance sprint? You think sprinters save their top speed?
Speed and explosion hmm explosion= what, quickness and acceleration maybe. Show me some numbers on people running the 40 and where they hit their top speed. You know where that mark is going to be?… at the finish line.
Also meters are longer than yards not sure where this came from. 40 yards (36.576 m)
Not going to discuss the claims thing I think that has been pointed out by myself others and you even.
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
by Rich Langford on Aug 6, 2009 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Wow...
I think I must be lessdixic or something the yards to conversion 40 yards (36.576 m) is right…. Not sure what I was thinking there.
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
by Rich Langford on Aug 6, 2009 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Like I said on my last post
Acceleration has a play in the 40. But the 40 is primarily used to measure speed. Do you even know why football players started running the 40 yard dash in the first place?
From the wiki article I posted above..
“The origin of timing football players for 40 yards comes from the average distance of a punt and the time it takes to reach that distance. Punts average around 40 yards in distance, and the hangtime (time of flight)averages approximately 4.5 seconds. Therefore, if a coach knows that a player runs 40 yards in 4.5 seconds, he will be able to leave the line of scrimmage when a punt is kicked, and reach at the point where the ball comes down just as it arrives.”
40 yard dashes are more about SPEED than ACCELERATION. Yes..acceleration plays a factor in speed, but acceleration is measured BETTER when there is alot of stopping/deceleration before accelerating again. Thats why Shuttles are so great to measure acceleration.
Based on your evidence of achieving top speed, obviously I was wrong. I based my thoughts on top speed from experience in sports, not on articles found online. In my experience as a basketball player, I’ve sprinted down court as fast as I could, reaching what I would say is my top speed. Now, I dont have instruments to tell me how fast i was running at each point on the court. But I know I was running as fast as I could. If I can do that in 80 something feet, I think I can do that in under 40 yards. But when you are talking differences of tenths of a second, I cant tell if im running 3/10th’s of a second faster at 3/4’s court than I was at half. Based on that, I can see my mistake on top speed in under 40 yards.
So based on top speed, I’ll admit that I was wrong. I dont have issues admitting things when I’m wrong. But when you have 2 other drills that measure acceleration much better than a 40 yard dash, id have to say the 40 is a better measurement of speed than anything else. And that, I feel that I am NOT wrong about.
As far as disproving your comments about Hali..I cant. Why? Because I havent seen him run a 40. I havent seen him run shuttles or cone drills so its impossible for me to tell you that hes faster. But based on reports from camp, he LOOKS faster, hes adapting quickly and is getting alot of praise in his transition to OLB. Will that translate to success? I dont know. Neither do you. But you’ll find out come week 2.
I cannot wait for the season!
Based on the current information it looks as if the Chiefs are currently ill-equipped to raise their defensive effectiveness by switching to a 3-4. Of course we do not know what the future holds… thanks captain obvious, but this is a debate given the information we have.
40 times are a good way to discuss speed and quickness because the average fan has points of comparisons to gauge from.
If a person is not yet at top speed in the 40 that would mean they are accelerating the whole time. If they are accelerating the entire time I would say it is a good measurement of acceleration as well.
It is also a measurement of speed because slower people are not going to accelerate as fast and/or will reach their top speed quicker.
Which may be why you felt you had reached top speed on a basketball court, maybe you are not that fast- I have no idea and at this point given your ignorance of speed I would not believe you if you told me you were.
Tenths of a second or 2-3 mph are a lot in terms of sprinting 40 yards I knew from my own experience in sports that I had not reached top speed in 40 yards, or by the time I reached first base and certainly never on a basketball court, but I decided to find an article to prove my point. Not sit here and say I have done this or that which is not very scientific or a basis for a debate. Nice to know you play basketball though Petey.
Again I never said the 40 was the best way to measure acceleration, but it does show speed and acceleration and it is a number most people can identify with. People accelerate differently at different points. Some people like Barry Sanders accelerate very quickly from the first step. Some like Usain Bolt, see their acceleration increase as they go.
The drills you are referring to are a better measure of initial quickness and acceleration, but those numbers are harder to find and not as easily identifiable.
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
by Rich Langford on Aug 6, 2009 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions
you come in here
and you act like just because you haven’t “made claims”, we can’t “make claims”. sorry dude, you don’t make rules.
just because cassel hasn’t played a down for KC yet, and just because the raiders have made their own bonehead FA signings, doesn’t mean we can’t question yours. your a chiefs fan in raider territory, what we say goes. it’s not like it’s an outrageous statement either. there is a legitimate chance that Cassel doesn’t play up to his contract, or is downright horrible, you just can’t underestimate that New England supporting cast. they’ve been way too dominating for way too long.
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
I didnt say
that you shouldnt make claims. I said you shouldnt make claims on things that arent true. I havent done that have I?
I didnt say you cant question us. I never had a problem with it. You are making it sound like I have complained that you have responded to what I’ve said.
I have debated your comments and explained why I disagree with some of your comments.
I never said we had an elite team, I never said we dont have questions to answer, I never said we were going to the superbowl.
I also never said we would win 12 games, 9 games, or anything about 6. I’ve said..repeatedly if you would just go back and read through the comments..that we would win no less than 6.
i dont think anyone in this board
would argue that D.Hall was an enormous waste of money/draft picks. J.walker was a bust but he’s restructured so i believe he’s only making 2 million (or is it 4?) this year. Tommy Kelly still hasn’t lived up to his contract, but he hasn’t been an epic fail, like Hall or Gibril Wilson.
but are you saying that just because the Raiders have given out stupid free agent contracts, we can’t say the chiefs have as well? obviously, no one knows for sure about Cassel, but because last year our team made horrible free agent choices, we can’t speculate as to how he’ll succeed in such a different environment?
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
My point exactly
How can you talk down on Cassels contract, knowing that the Raiders have screwed up more contracts than most teams (if not all) recently? Or we could talk about your draft issues in the last decade.
Tell me what FA acquisitions were stupid? Sure, we brought in Pat Surtain, Ty Law, Donnie Edwards, at the end of their careers. This year, we’ve brought in Goff, Vrabel, Engram, Toomer, and Thomas but did any of them receive massive contracts? No. I’m not knocking the Raiders for bringing in FA’s who didnt work out. It happens to every team (and ill be the first to say including KC). But to hand out massive contracts to players who HAVE played and have shown they are not worth that money, is crazy.
Face it. Its not a knock on Oakland or him. But Al Davis is running the Raiders right to the ground. Oakland used to be my favorite rival. San Diego just doesnt feel like a Rival, and I absolutely HATE Denver (fuck John Elway) but the Raiders fell off the map since the Superbowl. The only 1st round picks you’ve had who have panned out for you since 2000 is Janikowski, and Asomugha. DHB, JaMarcus and McFadden still have time to tell how they will do. I think McFadden has the best shot at being successful. Will I be surprised if JaMarcus makes it? No. The guy has all the talent in the world. But hes gotta get his mind right.
Stat for the day. Oakland has beat KC twice since 2003
The Chiefs first rounders this decade are not any better.
Besides seabass and Asomugha there has been Gallery, Napoleon Harris, Phillip Buchanon, Fabian Washington, Derrick Gibson, Michael Huff, Tyler Brayton. Sure Buchanon, Harris, Washington and Brayton were not around long but they contributed and they were low round picks. I am not going to argue these are great picks. I think everyone has been underwhelmed by Huff, who may not make the team, and Gibson was a dissopointment and well you guys know about Harris. Gallery has become a stud Guard.
The Chiefs have who Sylvester Morris, Ryan Simms, Larry and Derrick Johnson, Hali, Bowe, Dorsey, Albert and Jackson. Are you going to say this is overwhelmingly better than the Raiders?
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
by Rich Langford on Aug 5, 2009 8:22 PM PDT up reply actions
i just don't understand
why we shouldn’t be allowed to skeptical about your team’s FA signings. because our team has made bad FA signings, we can’t talk about yours?
You wanna talk about draft picks? perhaps many of our 1st round picks havent panned as we’d like, but good thing the draft lasts 7 rounds. you could go up and down the team finding draft picks that have been successful. J-russ, DMC, the jury is still out on.
we have Mario Henderson at LT, Robert Gallery whos productive at LG, kirk morrison, thomas howard, nnamdi, lechler, janikowski, mike bush..ricky brown. i mean, to say the raiders are bad at drafting is just downright ignorant. unless you only look at the first 32 picks….
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
This excites me!
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
by Rich Langford on Aug 5, 2009 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions
Contracts... Yawn.
Heard good things about Mitchell from guys who actually watched him in college. Most who know much about him seem to have said he was a steal. All 2nd- or 3rd-hand stuff, for me.
I’m not like either one of you or Petey, though, in the sense that I don’t give a shit if I’m right or wrong or don’t know what I’m talking about (although I speak truth as far as my ignorance will allow). Nice thing about a place like S&BP or AP is if you talk outta your hat, somebody will cry bullshit and school ya. My pride is in the CHIEFS and not in how smart y’all think I am. That’s my secret weapon learning tool. Heh.
i like this guy
comes in here, making reasonable comments, not going in fucking circles.
its tough to tell whether mitchell was a steal, a reach, or drafted where he probably should’ve went because their was basically no media outlets hypeing him up or even mentioning him..
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
Petey's got a lot of good knowledge.
So do noontide ‘n’ you. Hell, I couldn’t even remember Sly Morris’s name. He was just that skinny kid who looked awesome but fragile, and fragility won. Much easier to just say “Morris.”
Davis does some things I like, for instance Charles Woodson and Nnamdi Asomugha. And you can make a contrarian argument for reaching for speed in a guy like DHB, since I think you NEED something special at WR, you PROB’LY need to go 1st round to GET it, and most college highlight reels show big ‘n’ tall WRs playing against puny corners who aren’t half as physical as NFL corners, which means that the draft boards are prob’ly fucked up and man-love for WR busts is pretty widespread.
I DO think Davis (like King Carl) tries to make too big a splash in FA too often. Guys like Dante Hall or Larry Brown can be an asset, until they go looking for the big contracts. Kinda like Dan Snyder. I don’t think Albert Haynesworth is the Charles Haley of the current era, and it’s harder to manipulate the cap the way the 9ers and Cowboys did in years past, buying (and cheating) their way to the trophy.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Petey and noontide
make me question how much i actually know about football. that’s why i recced this fan post…learned ton of info on the chiefs here..
i agree with most you said. i hope for Washington’s sake, that Haynesworth does pan out well. if they were in the nfc north, they’d win the division every year, i think.
seriously though, the cap must’ve been built so that teams could cheat it…
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
Better chance of congress balancing a budget...
…than a winning season in Oaktown.
As long as the senility of Alzheimer Davis ruins, not runs, the organization, we will remain in the bottom dregs of the NFL. Our only respite is that the hated Denver Donkeys acted like Wierd Al was their consultant this offseason. There’s room for them to join us in the mire. I never forgave him for what he did to Marcus Allen or Gruden, but it’s even worse now. He insists on calling all the shots and the only shots that petrified fossil should be calling is, “More Whiskey!” Even his wife calls him Mr. Davis. Commitment to Excrement I call it!
...so why be a fan!!!
I’ve been a fan since the days of Clemon Daniels, Hewitt Dixon, Blanda, Davidson, Wilson (not Marc, Nehemiah), Mad Bomber, Wells, etc. I’ve been wearing my colors in Bronco Country for decades, including my Super Bowl Champion one—do YOU have one? “Mr. Davis” is a despot. Raider Nation is bigger than him. I just hope the apple fell FAR from that tree because it’s the son’s turn soon.
by RockyMtnRaider on Aug 5, 2009 8:29 AM PDT up reply actions
nope. never seen my raiders win a superbowl
became a real fan in 2002 when they lost the superbowl. have been followin religiously ever since. i respect how long you’ve been a fan of the raiders, and in denver, you must take a ton of shit from a bunch of classless fans.
but cmon dude. the team is young just about everywhere. the AFC west is weak. now’s the time to strike, bro. save the pessimism for november and december when it might be justified.
Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!
I've hated the Faders since Madden's day.
That hatred will never dim.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Yes, I am Comment Number 100.
Amazing, Jamarcus Russell hands off to McFadden who pitches it back to Russell who finds Darrius Heyward Bey in the Middle of the Field wide open 30, 20,10,5 Touchdown Raiders! Amazing. This telecast is Brought to you by Cable.
With how slow this post started, I never thought it would reach 50 comments much less 100 comments.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Aug 4, 2009 6:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Haha
I was thinking the same thing. It took like 2 or 3 days for you guys to really start posting on the topic and the debate skyrocketed.
Football season is here!
Thanks for the smack talking forum!
Wherever I go, that's where I am.
by Rich Langford on Aug 5, 2009 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions
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