Al Saunders for Oakland Raiders OC position?
by Sons-of-Blanda on Jan 18, 2011 9:12 PM PST
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PrintFor nearly 3 decades London born Al Saunders has coached and consulted offenses in the NFL. Known for his unrivaled, in bulk at least, offensive playbook which is reported to contain 7,000 plays within its 700 pages.
Saunders' name was mentioned at the press conference Tuesday in the context of Offensive Coordinator to fill the vacancy Hugh Jackson left when Hue assumed the Head Coaching position of our beloved Raiders. So, we should discuss Coach Saunders' pros and cons and decide whether or not we think he's the best choice.
Al Saunders knows Hue Jackson and enjoyed success in Baltimore over the past two years. Prior to that Saunders had some significant success in KC and both good and bad results at St. Louis, but his introduction to the NFL was not so pleasant; his first 3 years were really tough and it is an indication of his toughness and determination that he came back from those first 3 years of adversity.
HC Coach - San Diego
1986 - 3 and 5
1987 - 8 and 7
1988 - 6 and 10
AHC/WR - KC
1989 - 8 and 7
1990 - 11 and 5
1991 - 10 and 6
1992 - 10 and 6
1993 - 11 and 5
1994 - 9 and 7
1995 - 13 and 3
1996 - 9 and 7
1997 - 13 and 3
1998 - 7 and 9
AHC/WR - St. Louis Rams
1999 - 13 and 3
2000 - 10 and 6
OC - KC
2001 - 6 and 10
2002 - 8 and 8
2003 - 13 and 3
2004 - 7 and 9
2005 - 10 and 6
AHC - Washington
2006 - 5 and 11
2007 - 9 and 7
OC - St. Louis
2008 - 2 and 14
O Consultant - Baltimore
2009 - 9 and 7
2010 - 12 and 4
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Provided we are abe toGet the right DC
I’m cool with Hue calling plays, which I believe we might just see happen.
"The only yardstick for success our society has is being a champion. No one remembers anything else."--John Madden
""The massive Raider Nation is beyond doubt the sleaziest and rudest and most sinister mob of thugs and wackos ever assembled."--Hunter S. Thompson
This is not a response to you brhynno, this is just a place for what I think is a necessary comment.
Please forgive the intrusion but below you will read blogging from a KC fan named Cpt. Caveman. He has been dropping his feces over our blogs and I addressed them in the post titled, “Oakland Raiders Hire Al Saunders as Offensive Coordinator.” Hope you can stand his stench when you read his comments below and I tried to prevent further insult by changing his diapers in that post. If you can stomach it, you can read about it in that other post. I also make a note here because we as a Nation need to smash its insulting head where ever it rears its ugly head. Again, I beg your pardon for this intrusion and let you get back to your reading. Enjoy your blogging!!!
by RaiderPsycho on Jan 23, 2011 11:06 AM PST up reply actions
From Wiki:
From 1989–1998, Saunders was with the Kansas City Chiefs, where he served as the assistant head coach and wide receivers coach under Marty Schottenheimer.
Saunders would then join the St. Louis Rams coaching staff. From 1999-2000 he served as the wide receivers Coach under Dick Vermeil and later as assistant head coach under Mike Martz. During this period, the Rams won Super Bowl XXXIV in 2000.
Saunders would rejoin the Kansas City Chiefs in 2001 as the offensive coordinator when Vermeil came out of retirement. In his second stint with the Chiefs, Saunders built the NFL’s top offense, which was ranked #1 in the NFL from 2002–2005.
IMO i think he wont be any worse then cable or kiffin
"There comes a point an a mans life, he has to step up… I dont care what kind of man you are!!! there come’s a point where he has to fight!!! He has to has that in ’em! He gotta have that in ’em… Lets go, LETS GO!!! FIGHT on 3… 1-2-3- FIGHT!!!! -Richard Seymour
statistically
"There comes a point an a mans life, he has to step up… I dont care what kind of man you are!!! there come’s a point where he has to fight!!! He has to has that in ’em! He gotta have that in ’em… Lets go, LETS GO!!! FIGHT on 3… 1-2-3- FIGHT!!!! -Richard Seymour
I'm much more optimistic
Mr. Davis, Hue Jackson, and Al Saunders are aligned in terms of offensive philosophy. We can expect the Raiders to continue to rely on an excellent run game, pull secondary defenders closer to the line of scrimmage, then use play-action to go over the top. Saunders has been on Mr. Davis’ wish list for some time, so if he wants the job I’m sure Saunders will be offered it.
Just because you have an enormous playbook doesn’t mean all of it gets implemented. I would say only half gets implemented at all, and then even a smaller percentage is selected for a week-to-week offensive gameplan. Being more creative with offense and having more to choose from can only be a positive for a Raiders offense which has languished in the recent past. And as xville stated above, Saunders piloted the NFL’s most potent offense from ‘02-’05 in Kansas City.
"When we play tough, and we play physical, and when we play the way we're supposed to play, can't nobody beat us." - Richard "SeaMonster" Seymour
pucker up Adam
Mr. Davis wants to give you a kiss
by Al's Wingman on Jan 18, 2011 9:51 PM PST up reply actions
He may not have been successful in the 80's but his record is impressive in 2000s
1999-2000 saw Saunders join the ST. LOUIS RAMS as the wide receivers coach and he also served as associate head coach in 2000. During that two year span, Saunders helped revitalize a RAMS offense as the team steamrolled its way to 13-3 regular season record in 1999 and a Superbowl win over the Tennessee Titans.
The RAMS paced the NFL that season with 6,412 yards of total offense, good for a remarkable 400.8 yards per game average. The RAMS also led the the NFL in passing offense with 272.1 yards per game and scoring with a 32.9 points per game average. The 526 total points scored by the 99’ RAMS ranked as the fourth highest point total ever at that time.
In 2000, Saunders was part of a ST. LOUIS coaching staff that helped the RAMS score 540 points (33.8 points per game), the third highest single season total in NFL history. The team also led the NFL with a record 442.2 yards of total offense per game. The RAMS also led in the NFL in passing offense (327.0 yards per game) for the second straight season setting another league record in the process. ST. LOUIS amassed 7,075 yards of total offense and 5,232 passing yards, breaking the previous marks established by the 1984 Dolphins.
Saunders than moved on to the Kansas City Chiefs from (2001-2005) as their assistant head coach and offensive coordinator.
In 2002, Kansas City broke or tied 22 single season team offensive records. Most notably, Kansas city turned the ball over a franchise low 15 times (non-strike season) and broke two long standing NFL records by fumbling just seven times and losing only two of those fumbles. The Chiefs averaged 148.6 rushing yards per game to rank third in the NFL.
The Chiefs led the NFL in scoring in both the 2002 and 2003 seasons, becoming the first AFC team to lead the league in scoring in back-to-back seasons since San Diego in 1981-82. During the 2003 season alone, the Chiefs piled up a franchise record 484 points after registering a league high 467 points in 2002.
2004 saw the Chiefs lead the NFL in total offense for the first time in franchise history, accumulating a franchise record 6,695 yards or an average of 418.4 yards per game. Kansas City also set a new NFL record with 398 first downs, breaking the previous mark of 387 set by the 84’ Dolphins.
Saunders led the Kansas City Chiefs offense to a number one overall ranking in the NFL for 2005, which was the second season in a row that they led the NFL.
Dating back to 2001 when Al Saunders took over as offensive coordinator, the Chiefs ranked first in the NFL with 30,470 net yards of total offense (373.9) yards per game.The Chiefs impressive numbers during that 80 game span from 2001-2005 are also the league’s best in seven categories.
Offensive TD’s-(262)
Rushing TD’s-(131)
Total first downs-(1,760)
Red Zone TD%-(64.1)
Runs of 10+ yards-(312)
Passing yards per attempt-(7.83)
Passing yards per completion-(12.61)
On January 19, 2006, Al Saunders joined the coaching staff of the Washington Redskins as the associate head coach/offensive coordinator.
In his first season at the helm, the Redskins offense managed the type of impressive numbers in many categories that has been commonplace for a Saunders’ led offensive unit.
The team finished fourth in the league in rushing, averaging 138.5 yards per game and a league leading 41 carries of 10 yards or more. Also the offensive line was protecting the quarterback allowing just 19 sacks (third fewest in the NFL) and protecting the football with just 17 giveaways.(second fewest in the NFL)
In total, Al Saunders has been associated with 11 postseason appearances, five division crowns and a Superbowl victory. He was named USA Today’s NFL Offensive Coach of the Year in 2005.
"Weakness on both sides is, as we know, the motto of all quarrels." -Voltaire
Jason must have worked with him in Washington in '06 & '07
S-O-B: ITS HOW I ROLL, DEAL WITH IT.
"We had to get back to who we are, and that's physical and smash-mouth." - Robert Gallery 12/5/2010
by Sons-of-Blanda on Jan 18, 2011 8:06 PM PST up reply actions
Duh
S-O-B: ITS HOW I ROLL, DEAL WITH IT.
"We had to get back to who we are, and that's physical and smash-mouth." - Robert Gallery 12/5/2010
by Sons-of-Blanda on Jan 18, 2011 9:20 PM PST up reply actions
Thanks for updating and editing the post.
You sir, are a gentleman.
"Weakness on both sides is, as we know, the motto of all quarrels." -Voltaire
Impressive
Impressive with all this talk about offense but that appears to be fixed and just needs tweaking. However what wins championships most of the time is a decent or great defense. Hue Jackson can be both HC and OC. We need a really good DC that will put some fire and heart into our defense.
by Archangel25 on Jan 18, 2011 8:15 PM PST via mobile reply actions
Our new "DC" Is Busy In Chicago!!...
Winston Moss will return home…Baltimore already promoted their back up to “DC” so they wouldn’t loose him to Hue….
Saunders will be the OC and hue will call the plays…Saunders will bring in some plays to help in certain situations where you were watching the game and thought "wtf was that
“. He will help, but not change anything being with both Jason and Hue already. We need a DC and I see Mike stepping up or Hue going to another team he was to get someone.
That would be a big change with Saunders
Why introduce a new offense when they have 1 year of Huey’s offense in the books. I don’t see them changing that drastcially. They should hire someone as a protoge of Huey, not someone to make things more complex for the players to learn.
Saunders would be a resource and assistant to help formulate and develop gameplans. There's no way that any offense
could, or even should, learn a huge repertoire – they wouldn’t have time enough to practice so many plays even if they could all memorize them. So I see him continuing in the consultant role and assisting with teaching the stuff the Hue already was versed in at Baltimore. I’m glad Al decided to harvest coaches from teams like Baltimore and NYG instead of the prissy one’s with spread O’s and nobody in the backfield.
S-O-B: ITS HOW I ROLL, DEAL WITH IT.
"We had to get back to who we are, and that's physical and smash-mouth." - Robert Gallery 12/5/2010
by Sons-of-Blanda on Jan 18, 2011 10:18 PM PST up reply actions
too many cooks in ther kitchen
All you need is one voice. Let it be baby huey’s show. Look what happens when you have a paul hackett and ted tollner on board. Too many old school dudes set in their ways. No one needs a consultant. The pattern has been to use lesser minds such as kelly skipper at RB coach as an example. he has nothing to add as far as game planning. He’s just there to run the drills, teach and so forth. You don’t need a lot of voices for the game planning and that is what baby huey should be doing.
by Al's Wingman on Jan 18, 2011 11:11 PM PST up reply actions
I think you nailed it SOB
Saunders input is going to be invaluable. He is not going to bring in his offense, but simply help Hue decide how best to use the existing offense to attack a defense. He will come in fully aware of his role and not seek to sabotage or self-promote. Let’s not forget, Hue only has one year experience calling plays and he just got a lot more added to his plate. I like the idea of adding experience to this mix.
Drunk by noon, but that's okay--I'll be president someday.
by Rich Langford on Jan 19, 2011 2:30 AM PST up reply actions
OMG, reading Jerry's transcripts of the PC...
The “local” guy that Al was considering for GM was some guy named Rich Snead? WTF?
Does someone know who the guy is?
The RaiderLaker
I don't think that Hue will call plays
But he will obviously have plenty of input into the scheme, and likely reserve the ability to call plays should he feel Saunders is deviating too much.
I feel that this is a big difference from last year, when Jackson was brought in because Cable had no effing clue as to what he was doing. I don’t believe that Cable was allowed to overrule Jackson at any time, but with Jackson having had success, he will be able to step in when he feels it necessary.
Hiring someone like Saunders is not going to be easy if you tell him that he will not be calling plays, or have a say in designing the offense…
Failure builds character; success reveals it
It's somewhere in between. Hue,imo, will ultimately call the play but Saunders (if he's the OC) will give his prior advice
and of course, be the architect of each weeks gameplan.
S-O-B: ITS HOW I ROLL, DEAL WITH IT.
"We had to get back to who we are, and that's physical and smash-mouth." - Robert Gallery 12/5/2010
by Sons-of-Blanda on Jan 19, 2011 6:41 AM PST up reply actions
Nice researching, sir. I feel you are dead on here
Though we are due for at least one of Al’s curve balls. Probably overdue. It’s been far too predictable of late, which has me anticipating something out of left field.
"The only yardstick for success our society has is being a champion. No one remembers anything else."--John Madden
""The massive Raider Nation is beyond doubt the sleaziest and rudest and most sinister mob of thugs and wackos ever assembled."--Hunter S. Thompson
Still holding my breath too.
S-O-B: ITS HOW I ROLL, DEAL WITH IT.
"We had to get back to who we are, and that's physical and smash-mouth." - Robert Gallery 12/5/2010
by Sons-of-Blanda on Jan 19, 2011 9:21 AM PST up reply actions
jason la canfora
reports chances are almost perfect that saunders gets the job
If so, the new Chuck in town can help Hue choose new OL and WR coaches
S-O-B: ITS HOW I ROLL, DEAL WITH IT.
"We had to get back to who we are, and that's physical and smash-mouth." - Robert Gallery 12/5/2010
by Sons-of-Blanda on Jan 19, 2011 12:22 PM PST up reply actions
Did they axe Lal?
To be honest anything should be an upgrade by now.
God I hope so.
That guy is a dumpster fire.
by golfswithglock on Jan 20, 2011 5:37 AM PST up reply actions
hue respects al saunders and the 2 of them would bring a more exciting offense.
i like the idea of hue calling plays but with al saunders also sharing plays with him. both minds think alike and opens up the offense. also i hope mike bush resigns with raiders .
by sports with steve on Jan 19, 2011 1:55 PM PST reply actions
The Raiders have to pieces in place to have a lethal offense, with Al Saunders.
I’m expecting the Raiders to take the division next year, if Campbell stays healthy.
Off topic: Here’s a link to a Caption this at the AP, it has Al Davis and Hue in the picture. http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2011/1/18/1943047/caption-this#57255298
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
Raiders have the easiest schedule next year in the AFC West...
So, Marty Ball + Greatest Show on Turf + Al Daivs = ??
A Ric Flair strut by me every Sunday?
by golfswithglock on Jan 20, 2011 5:38 AM PST up reply actions
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
gotta respect the nature boy
by lchristmas on Jan 20, 2011 11:11 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
= 10-6.............................. sounds about right.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
by CPT.Caveman on Jan 20, 2011 10:51 AM PST up reply actions
I find this post and the comments to it pretty distasteful
Anyone of us will eventually age.
by Spirals galore on Jan 20, 2011 6:51 AM PST up reply actions
Come on it was all in fun.
Please we all know AL will never die, he’s a vampire.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
by CPT.Caveman on Jan 20, 2011 10:46 AM PST up reply actions
I don't even need to look to see its classy
They are all over there, especially “hiv 2 elway.”
Understated midwestern class.
by lchristmas on Jan 20, 2011 11:13 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Hey it's a Caption this post.
It’s meant to poke fun at who ever it is in the picture. I find it odd that someone from a Raider blog would be worried about keepin it classy.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
You brought it up not me.
It’s not like i was insulting you guys, in fact i was giving the Raiders credit for the coaches being brought in. All i get in return is insults yet were the ones who are being questioned about being Classy.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
Yes, but you brought in a total non sequitur - a link to a trite post on Arrowhead Pride
You may think the post is innocuous, I find it distasteful. What was your point in posting it here?
by Spirals galore on Jan 20, 2011 8:17 PM PST up reply actions
Lets see it has your Owner and coach, maybe.
That could be the reason or maybe i thought you guys would get a good laugh since it was a Caption this post. I’m sorry from now I’ll just respond to posts i like and you guys can insult me and my team, ok.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
+ 1
S-O-B: ITS HOW I ROLL, DEAL WITH IT.
"We had to get back to who we are, and that's physical and smash-mouth." - Robert Gallery 12/5/2010
by Sons-of-Blanda on Jan 20, 2011 8:38 PM PST up reply actions
It's easier that way.
You don’t have to look up words like sequitur, trite, and innocuous. You can stick to the normal grammar of Fuck every other word.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
Yes, good, now go back to your gossipy blog.
by Spirals galore on Jan 20, 2011 8:41 PM PST up reply actions
Why when i can stay here at the Pathetic one.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
As a first-class boorish troll??
Seriously, Caveman, know when to leave.
by Spirals galore on Jan 20, 2011 8:48 PM PST up reply actions
You guys got it started down this path not me.
If it a insult game you want i can dish it out as well, but i would prefer not to have too.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
You are beginning to crack me up:)
Since you are here anyway, let me ask you a question. It’s a genuine one (I had to look up that college word): what is the AP def of “classy”?
by Spirals galore on Jan 20, 2011 9:16 PM PST up reply actions
Most of us try to refrain from using the "F" word.
We try to keep it clean for others who visit the Blog, and name calling or personal insults are usually not allowed.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
by CPT.Caveman on Jan 21, 2011 12:47 AM PST up reply actions
Damn it's easy to get sucked into a insult match, but that not why I come here.
I would rather debate football with you guys not this shit.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
if you fucking fatfucks think this fucking blog is so fucking unworthy why the fuck are you always fucking coming over here? Go fucking circle jerk about your fucking thinly veiled classy trailer park racism back at your own fucking blog. You fuck.
by lchristmas on Jan 20, 2011 9:25 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
You didn't use fuck in every other word!
Our reputation is ruined!
by Spirals galore on Jan 20, 2011 9:29 PM PST up reply actions
Its fucking hard (fuck!) to fucking do
by lchristmas on Jan 20, 2011 9:42 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
May I ...
THAT FRICKING FRICKHEAD FRICKED THE FRICKING DUMBFRICK FRICKING HARDER THAN FRICK. Frick! I fricked-up.
S-O-B: ITS HOW I ROLL, DEAL WITH IT.
"We had to get back to who we are, and that's physical and smash-mouth." - Robert Gallery 12/5/2010
by Sons-of-Blanda on Jan 20, 2011 9:52 PM PST up reply actions
I found some of the conjecture in this debate hilarious....
There were a few humorous/funny posts in that caption pic thread. Most were recycled jokes but quite a few were clever and made me chuckle. I mean shit, we’ve said worst shit about that old fuck on here than THEY have.
"Lil' Dam, I make psychic bitches Get Low"
by Raider Zealot on Jan 21, 2011 5:09 AM PST up reply actions
Thank you and I agree.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
by CPT.Caveman on Jan 21, 2011 10:47 AM PST up reply actions
You will now witness the power of a fulling operational Death Star.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
by CPT.Caveman on Jan 21, 2011 11:42 AM PST up reply actions
What the fuck is a "fulling deathstar"?
by golfswithglock on Jan 21, 2011 11:54 AM PST up reply actions
Will it was close to fully.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
by CPT.Caveman on Jan 21, 2011 11:57 AM PST up reply actions
AYE DIOS!!!!!
My God, no wonder Al thinks the player’s union are making a big deal about injuries due to the new 18 game format. If a 150 yr old man can do a press conference after a knife fight then why make a big stink about a hamstring pull?
Trust No One
Studies show stress can kill you, but don't worry about it.
Did some research on Saunders
Because, honestly, I didn’t know all that much about him, although I’d certainly heard of him. I really thought that coming from the ‘Air Coryell’ offense that he would have more passing, but it looks like he has been very balanced. Although there is usually more passing than running, it generally hasn’t gone above about 55-45, which was a pleasant surprise.
The only thing that I am not excited about is that Campbell played okay, but not really well, when Saunders was in Washington. Now, that may be as a result of not having all that great of a running game (3.8 ypc), or what, but I guess we’ll find out.
All in all, I am looking forward to seeing how it all comes together…
Failure builds character; success reveals it
I've liked his offenses usually.
He was more pass oriented with the Rams the year they won the Super Bowl probably because Martz was calling the plays mostly and he was more run oriented in KC when he followed Vermeil. He has a great offensive mind and really believe he would be a great strategist to assist Hue if he is indeed hired. Hopefully they can get rid of Lal, Tollner and Hackett as two heads are enough on one side of the ball.
Trust No One
Studies show stress can kill you, but don't worry about it.
I heard Hackett was gone, but can't swear to it...
Failure builds character; success reveals it
Does any poster from AP ever write a sentence without the word "classy" in it? It's obvious that what the word represents
is something they all lack. Rather pathetic, a hoard of paraplegics all striving to be a sprinters.
S-O-B: ITS HOW I ROLL, DEAL WITH IT.
"We had to get back to who we are, and that's physical and smash-mouth." - Robert Gallery 12/5/2010
Look above
Do you think before you type or do you just like running your mouth like a complete douche?
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
Youre kinda grouchy
Make sure calgary craig gives you a reach around next time
by lchristmas on Jan 20, 2011 9:27 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Craig and I don't see eye to eye on alot of stuff.
I don’t get along with H2E either.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
by CPT.Caveman on Jan 21, 2011 12:24 AM PST up reply actions
It's official, Schefter is reporting that Al Saunders is our new OC
"Weakness on both sides is, as we know, the motto of all quarrels." -Voltaire
I'm fine with Saunders
But I wonder who the DC will be. More important question in my book .
@WorldBLee
It all fits
at the surface. JC is now familiar with both the system, HC, and OC. No excuse about unfamiliar system, etc. JC must own the playbook by mini-camp, regardless of 700 pages, etc. Let’s solidify the OL, resign Miller and Bush, and we’re good to go. An experienced WR would be much welcomed but Chaz needs to be the man. Can we now focus on defense and run stop in particular?
by raiders4liffe on Jan 21, 2011 2:23 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
i dont think its gonna be saunders playbook
hues gonna be calling the plays so it would make sense if they were his plays right?
by RyanTheRaider on Jan 21, 2011 2:18 PM PST up reply actions
yes and no,
where did Hue get his plays? Probably from a repertoire developed by Saunders. They share similar philosophies and approach, hence, it really doesn’t matter whose playbook. You’re pointing to something else – “who will call plays”. That’s a different conversation as it’s about feel for the other team’s tendencies and weaknesses or simply putting our players in a position to exploit at the right moment. My point is we’re just about as set as we’re going to be on offence, HC and OC covered with similar views who now know JC; it’s all good. Need to change up Sanjay in the WR dept but we’re overall good. Can we now focus on defence?
by raiders4liffe on Jan 22, 2011 3:45 AM PST up reply actions
Yes, on to defense ... and a DC with a playbook like Saunders .... big and diverse
S-O-B: ITS HOW I ROLL, DEAL WITH IT.
"We had to get back to who we are, and that's physical and smash-mouth." - Robert Gallery 12/5/2010
by Sons-of-Blanda on Jan 22, 2011 7:45 AM PST up reply actions
Need OL coach(es) too
S-O-B: ITS HOW I ROLL, DEAL WITH IT.
"We had to get back to who we are, and that's physical and smash-mouth." - Robert Gallery 12/5/2010
by Sons-of-Blanda on Jan 22, 2011 7:56 AM PST up reply actions
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