The quintessential free agency question: Who do we keep, Jason Campbell or Michael Bush?
by RaiderPsycho on Dec 26, 2011 3:33 PM PST
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PrintIn this article, I wanted to present a thought-evoking dilemma. For some of you the answer will be easy, but for others I think it will be pretty tough. Let's carefully look at the question of the upcoming post season and free agency. Jason Campbell and Mike Bush will be FAs at the end of this season. Given the salary cap and the notion that we now have Palmer to pay, it seems that we will probably give up at least one if not both JC and MB. The Ideal scenario is that we keep both of them, which is my preferred scenario, but let's keep it real. In this debate, I hope people don't just rant out hatred for any player, although you are entitled to do so because that is what blogging is about, but unbiased opinions carry more weight because debaters are looked upon as not being overcontrolled by emotions. Please try to keep rants at bay in this important debate. I will try to present the pluses and minuses of the argument to help weigh in the odds, and I am hoping to see other unique perspectives that I may not have noticed or overlooked - I am looking to be informed by you!
Pros/cons Bush. What we know of DMC's inconsistency is that he is consistently injured, an experience we have had in 4 years of playing establishes that he is injury prone. Taiwan has shown flashes of brilliance but may also be injury prone and is yet unproven due to little playing time. Bush seems to provide stability at this position but he does not have DMC's talent. We saw how he busted open at San Diego yet was caught from behind, something that would not have happened to DMC. He bulls up the middle, but has difficulty getting success when the box is stacked and teams plan for him. He is a bullish runner that often tires opponents in games where he is successful. No doubt though, he adds much stability to our running game and with DMC available, this creates nightmares for opponents. It is obvious that hanging on to Bush is a necessity that we might lose out on if someone else picks him up.
Pros/cons JC. When you look at what happens to teams that lose their starting qb, I think this is the worst nightmare that can happen to any team, e.g., Manning, Schaub, Cassel, Cutler, Campbell, etc. Nothing can be so devastating as losing an effective starting qb, bearing witness to what Boller did to us. Jason started out playing flat-footed, immobile, checking down too much, inaccurate deep ball, not always making the best decisions, hesitant, and (fill in the blank). On the other hand, he showed that if he has consistency such as with us and not the Redskins, he can adapt, become proficient, and has shown a stable sense of improvement albeit slowly. He has shown some pretty good leadership characteristics, even during the offseason, and what is clear to me is that the rest of the team really believed and resonated with him. The whole team was actually developing pretty well around him. JC can play at the level of starter and is beyond backup. In terms of his development, I have seen him lose a lot of his flatfootedness and he began to scramble, and the added mobility has created problems for other teams. He slowly developed chemistry with his wrs, a chemistry that was continuing to get better as the season went. Even though some of his long passes look little more than a Hail Mary at times, he nevertheless seemed to be developing a better deep ball, e.g., how he split the Bills defenders with that Moore TD. He is a competent short and midrange passer. As Campbell himself said after he was hurt that he was still developing and improving and still had a way to go and I believe him. I think he was more than an excellent game manager, one who made few mistakes on the field, such as not giving up the ball or throwing few interceptions. With his continuing improvement he no doubtedly can take us to the playoffs and I cannot discount the possibility of a future SB. Statistically, JC has put up decent, if not, very good numbers.
I think that it is important food for thought to look at the whole qb situation in order to make more intelligent decisions with JC. Pryor is still a work in progress, which is not to say he won't be another Newton, but this is still risky business to consider him for the helm as of yet. Pryor adds insurance but we need to make a JC/Bush decision now. As regards stability with Palmer, he is definitely a more accurate passer and can thread the needle. Palmer I am sure will develop much more chemistry given the fairness of practicing in the offseason. I think most people feel he will carry the team with the potential of a SB. However, his accuracy can also be in question because the number of interceptions he throws is downright scary! He is far too statuesque in the pocket, clearly lacking mobility - he is a very sackable qb if the o-line does not give needed protection. I, like so many people automatically assumed we had a remarkable upgrade in Palmer from JC, but to me, after watching him perform poorly with his interceptions in numerous games, I sense a serious closing of the gap. Rivers has thrown 19 interceptions to lead the league, while Palmer has thrown 15 in 8.5 games. In addition, this interception pattern is a carryover from the Bengal days. It is true that many of our offensive weapons have been hurt while not for JC, and this justifiably needs to be taken into consideration. He has not shown as much in leadership and I don't think he commands the same respect or following from the players as JC did. I'm not trying to be down on Palmer as I just got a Palmer jersey for Xmas, so I ask you to please balance any possible bias.
My final thoughts on this (I actually have more but the post is long enough - you elaborate!) is that the qb position is much more difficult to replace than the rb, e.g., look what we gave up in order to replace JC, something we would never do if Bush was hurt. Even without DMC we have struggled but managed to perform to the final game of the season without elimination. There has been some talk that the Raiders are going to try to offer JC a deal to keep him on the team, and to me, we would be solid at qb for many years if that could be done. Could some of you be so kind as to rec this post as I think this is a worthwhile and serious debate. I am only giving 2 choices in the poll because a third choice where we keep both would be too obvious of a choice. If we could only choose one, who would it be?
Signed, LitigatingPsycho
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I'm sorry but this is very flawed
Jones has shown he cannot even stay healthy despite a grand total of 16 carries this year. If Bush leaves in free agency, we’re going to add someone like Marion Barber, Thomas Jones, or another veteran who will sign for a reasonable contract. We would need someone who can be a 20-25 carry per game back for the 4-6 games DMC is going to miss per year.
by Terps12 on Dec 26, 2011 8:25 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Bush needs to stay
DMC will be injured every season for at least 4 games and we know it and its too risky to rely on Taiwan as he has shown flashes but nothing consistent. How many times has he gotten a carry since the preseason?? Palmer will be a better player when he has a full offseason, OTAs, Training Camp and a PreSeason, believe me, he can be way better than JC and I love JC. But Palmer is just another QB. He hasnt shown it but his accuracy has shown it, he has shown us that his elbow is just fine, he has shown good mechanics, he just needs chemestry with his recievers, a good running game, learn to take a sack or throw it away in some situations and he will be great. JC had a Training Camp and PreSeason and no injuries (Darren McFadden, Jacoby, Denarius) and managed to have a very good season but nothing special. Palmer hasnt played with DMC, if Jacoby isnt missing then it is Denarius. Tougher opponents and has managed to keep us in the race. I think we have to keep Bush. Sucks that JC is in his final year so he cant be traded.
Michael Bush most likely will be gone;
There are many teams that need a RB, and are not looking in the draft for them. I believe he will go to New England, where he will make noise. However, I want us to keep Bush, and use our RBs as a RB committee with Reece, which will make our backfield deep and explosive.
I want us to keep Campbell. I don’t think he will start anywhere else, because everybody is going young nowadays, and I really do not trust Palmer. He has not been the same since that knee injury he suffered that playoffs, and even though he took his team to the playoffs again, I don’t have faith in him. He turns the ball over way too many times, and to put the entire team on his back will be an error.
I also believe that the playcalling will change; I believe that we will see less runs and more throws with Carson in because Hue loves Carson. I’ll give Palmer the benefit of the doubt that most of our playmakers are injured – although DHB is close to 1,000 yards this season – but, I don’t think it will get better. And, I’ll dare say this: We saw how Campbell got injured. What happens if Palmer gets injured?
In conclusion, I would love to keep both. However, if we had to keep one….. I’m going Bush. However, we better find a decent backup, because I can see this team going 12-4 with Carson at the helm; I can also see this team going 6-10 with Carson at the helm – especially if we get a strong schedule.
I am a Raider Fan. But I also a player's person as well.
by NFLanalyzerfromhome on Dec 26, 2011 4:40 PM PST reply actions
Bush will be franchised
"I’m gonna climb up you today, Stat! No layups!" - Dump
Follow @MattyFnRaider
ONE NATION UNDER AL
Respect the reputation or it's an altercation.
Franchised, and maybe traded....
But Bush is a must for the Raiders. Too much value there to let the man go for free
This may be an awkward approach
But, with us being over the cap to begin this season, it may actually help not having our first rounders in the draft for a while. We may actually be able to pay these guys. Does that make any kind of sense?
AFC West Assassins...
But
Are we for sure over the cap?
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/oakland-raiders/cap-hit/
Thought it was 120 mil.
Those are 2011 numbers
and not updated at all. They don’t have salaries for half the team up there (including like 8mm per year for Huff). You have to figure everyone’s 2012 number is higher than their 2011 number unless we can restructure some of the contracts for next year.
Lots of peoples contracts go down instead of up from year to year, its not going to be everyone making more
"We want to win. The Raider fans deserve it. The Raider players deserve it, even my organization deserves it. You have to win and you have to win with a vision for the Super Bowl. That's our passion here."--Al Davis
"Winning isn't everything, but wanting to win is."--Vince Lombardi
by Marcus Allen Krause on Dec 26, 2011 10:02 PM PST up reply actions
Tade McFadden while we can!!
Why keep a running back that is made of glass? We should sign the bruiser(Bush) for about four years. Jones can be our speed back and Bush to pound the rock. I dont think Campbell would want to stick around because he has stated he still wants to start in the league. So, why pay someone who might be a distraction in the locker rooom.
JC/MB
It depends if he wants to go elsewhere and be a starting QB. Teams are playing rookie QBs more and more so it may limit his options. I think it will be his choice and how much he wants. He knows the system and Palmer had had some injuries.
While Bush my get 1,000 yards this year, he just does not have the break away speed that teams want. I thought he was gone for sure, but now I am not so convinced. Let’s see if he has a monster game against SD.
First thing our NEW GM should do
Carson has to redo his contract no way he is playing at a 16 million dollar level. Seymour and Routt also need to redo theres. then we can keep them both if they want to stay, but we need help in other areas.
Both Mallard and Michael Y raise some interesting points that merit consideration.
In the last 4 games, Bush was not productive at the level we expect from starting rbs. If the passing game opens up, I think Bush will open up but we can’t always count on that. He is still young but no spring chicken, and perhaps might become affordable as Mallard alludes. Michael Y points out that it can be possible if contracts are restructured, but I think the likelihood of that happening is quite negligible albeit deservedly so.
by RaiderPsycho on Dec 26, 2011 7:36 PM PST up reply actions
In essence, Bush has been carrying the team at rushing.
since DMC went down, and the glass legged Mr Jones has since retired, Bush has become a Tyrone Wheatley style back.
Yea, these guys are right that he doesnt have the speed for the outside, but he has brutalized lineman and backers just running into them and most of his receptions have also been excellent in YAC.
Reece has in my opinion been under utilized. I dont understand why Bush at times seems as if he is the only RB.
I would keep Bush. I agree with reworking contracts as that is only right, as Palmer needs to rework his and take a paycut.
When DMC and Bush are both in the backfield, we are a dangerous team with a man who can pitch it deep and accurate like Palmer.
The cowards never started, the weak died along the way....
by BlackHeartSilverEyes on Dec 27, 2011 8:04 AM PST up reply actions
For all practical purposes, he has been doing it all by himself lately - that's quite a feat.
by RaiderPsycho on Dec 27, 2011 5:20 PM PST up reply actions
And thats why he needs to stay
The cowards never started, the weak died along the way....
by BlackHeartSilverEyes on Dec 28, 2011 7:11 PM PST up reply actions
In the last four games
defenses have been stacking up the line attempting to stop Bush and our running attack.
They know that our run keys our pass game and stopping the run is the key to beating us.
"Now I know what your thinking, did he fire six shots or only five. Ive forgotten myself in all this excitement, but being that this is the 44 magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world and could blow your head clean off, you have to ask your question. Do I feel lucky? Well do ya punk!"
Dirty Harry Callahan
Bush's success depends on the O-line.
Unlike McFadden, he can’t make up for a bad outing by the line. McFadden would bust 20 yards with the slightest hole. Bush can’t do that.
In addition, Bush lacks the speed of Taiwan and DMC to get to the outside edges and break out runs like they can.
Is it possible then, that we can survive with DMC and Taiwan and survive without Bush?
by RaiderPsycho on Dec 26, 2011 7:39 PM PST up reply actions
Tough call
To answer RaiderPsycho…I do not think we can survive with just Taiwan and DMC unless they learn how to block better and Marcel gets some “Michael Bush” touches. I could see us using Marcel as a goal line back or on some screen plays…now that I think about it Reece could replace Bush. He has the same type of running style, but he can actually block. I guess if we had to, Tonga could be a FB and DMC/Reece could split with Taiwan coming in to keep DMC fresh. I really can’t pick one to be honest with you. I really like JC and Bush but at the end of the day, they are both expendable. Bush can test the market, but he is not a #1 back after watching him start this season. The Nation has been great to him and I think he should try to make it work and stay.
In case you weren't aware
Reece was a WR in college…
(sorry, running joke in my circle due to the announcers making this statement nearly every time he touches the ball…)
...Watching DeMarcus Cousins’ transformation from large human to immortal kill beast...
We won't have the money for Bush
and we won’t have the playing time for Campbell.
I don't think we will have the money for Jason either.
by RaiderPsycho on Dec 27, 2011 5:07 PM PST up reply actions
It's Jason's choice and it's not about money for him
He still believes he’s a starting QB in this league. He will not be starting for us, so if he get’s an offer to start elsewhere he will take it. I’d love to have him as a back up, but unless he get’s no other offers (which is unlikely) he is likely gone.
"Now I know what your thinking, did he fire six shots or only five. Ive forgotten myself in all this excitement, but being that this is the 44 magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world and could blow your head clean off, you have to ask your question. Do I feel lucky? Well do ya punk!"
Dirty Harry Callahan
He could try a bunch of teams
Miami, Arizona, Minnesota, and Seattle all have either young QBs or guys who get injured a lot. Jason could sign there for a shot to win the job. Carson is much more locked into the starting role.
I voted Campbell because I think Bush will get a job elsewhere
I would LOVE to see us draft Monty Ball to replace him, he is a similar bruiser but also has speed. Wisconsin backs have done badly in the NFL and I think that will make him drop in the draft but I think he is going to be the Badger back that succeeds.
"We want to win. The Raider fans deserve it. The Raider players deserve it, even my organization deserves it. You have to win and you have to win with a vision for the Super Bowl. That's our passion here."--Al Davis
"Winning isn't everything, but wanting to win is."--Vince Lombardi
by Marcus Allen Krause on Dec 26, 2011 10:04 PM PST reply actions
Unless he goes back to WI for one more year of course, but still we can replace Bush easier than get a replacement for Palmer in an emergency situation
"We want to win. The Raider fans deserve it. The Raider players deserve it, even my organization deserves it. You have to win and you have to win with a vision for the Super Bowl. That's our passion here."--Al Davis
"Winning isn't everything, but wanting to win is."--Vince Lombardi
by Marcus Allen Krause on Dec 26, 2011 10:06 PM PST up reply actions
aM.Bush
"THE TIME TO WIN IS NOW" - Coach Hue Jackson
Raider Nation..........we need all hand's on deck or get the hell off the ship! That's the way it's gonna be around here from now on! If trading away a couple of first round draft picks can get you a proven franchise quarterback like Carson Palmer and a legitimate shot at going to the playoffs, then fine...............you know why? Because this team is standing behind it's motto & legacy, "Just Win Baby!" and "Commitment to Excellence" instead of "Suck for Luck" & "Give Up". Imagine if you were a fan of a team that actually bought into that.......
Cheers,
- Saint
http://SportsnSpaceTalk.freeforums.org/
by The MoonMan 804 on Dec 27, 2011 4:34 AM PST reply actions
Have to franchise Bush.
Lets face it, the Raiders stable isn’t as great as once thought. McFadden, as great as he is, is very injury prone. A Lisfranc injury for a runner like him can be a career changer. Taiwan Jones has shone to be injury prone over the last four years. He broke his fibula his freshman year at EWU and he broke his toe his junior year in the playoffs, before declaring for the draft, then he gets injured his rookie year. Bush was great this year until Hue ran him into the ground with 84 carries in three games. Since the Chicago game, Bush is averaging 3.28 y/c. Remember, he hasnt had this kind of workload since 2005 at Louisville. Even then, that was the only other time in his collegiate/pro career that he has had 200+ carries. The Raiders need to franchise him, and look for somebody else to take the spot that Cartwright is using on the roster.
Cartwright is the ST captain, and a very good ST player ...
He is also a passably capable running back in a pinch, and he can catch out of the backfield. In short, I doubt Rock is going anywhere.
AFA the question at hand, it’s a tough call because Bush is someone who’d be playing every week, whereas JC would just be hanging out making cash and possibly never playing. For that sole reason, I’m inclined to pick Bush in this contest.
If we don’t keep JC though, I REALLY REALLY PRAY that we either get Pryor into ‘game shape’ before the season starts next year, OR we replace Boller w/someone competent. If losing JC means that we’re stuck w/Boller and an unprepared Pryor … then I might have to reconsider my answer, presuming JC wants to be here.
Keeping JC puts us in a position that a few teams right now would be extremely envious of … Texans for one, but much more so the Bears, who’ve seen their (what were at one time very achievable) playoff aspirations instantly evaporate into thin air with the injury to their starter.
Basically, keeping JC means we’d have the most ‘ready’ backup QB in the league if our starter went down. It seems kinda like a waste paying him, on the one hand, HOWEVER if we actually ended up needing him due to CP3 going down for the season in the middle of a playoff run, he’d be worth his weight in gold …
All told though I go with Bush because he won’t be clipboard jockey, he’ll be out there pounding it every week.
by Brett J Valjalo on Dec 27, 2011 12:11 PM PST up reply actions
You are very pensive, with careful additions to the argument.
by RaiderPsycho on Dec 27, 2011 5:22 PM PST up reply actions
Am I ever any other way?
;)
BTW, nofx brought up Cartwright like he was expendable … I was disagreeing with him, not correcting you.
by Brett J Valjalo on Dec 27, 2011 11:33 PM PST up reply actions
By the way, I don't know if JC would just warm the bench.
Back in the day when Lamonica and Stabler were competing, the Raiders actually game planned so that both of them would play, each player playing a half game each. I recall Lamonica playing the first half and Stabler the second half until Stabler eventually won the starting job. However, there were games in which both of them would lay an egg in the same game, then Blanda would come in and produce some good fireworks both kicking and passing. Could it be that Palmer, JC, and Pryor enter a similar scenario? Let’s face it, Palmer has laid some eggs and it would have been nice if JC could have come in relief, a possibility that is likely to happen if JC stays, and of course, Pryor will know the playbook if both lay eggs.
by RaiderPsycho on Dec 27, 2011 8:36 PM PST up reply actions
A JC-Palmer competition actually sounds intriguing to me.
I think too many people will presume that Palmer will automatically be an unquestioned starter while JC will be a benchwarmer, and I hardly think that will be the case. JC is a quiet guy who will creep in without bitching, which is what happened with Gradkowski.
by RaiderPsycho on Dec 27, 2011 8:43 PM PST up reply actions
List
Let’s list who may want Campbell as a starting QB SHORT term. Just throwing teams out there. Not many of them.
Redskins
Broncos
Seahawks
Miami
Cleveland
Bucs
Cardinals
I dont see him anywhere near the 'Skins....why go back to scene of your first fail?
The cowards never started, the weak died along the way....
by BlackHeartSilverEyes on Dec 27, 2011 10:16 AM PST up reply actions
Trade McFadden for a 1st round pick
Resign Bush and take a cornerback, preferably Dre Kirkpatrick.
we’re cheap, like to drink and are pissed off.
WHO WANTS A FREE SHARPIE?? -- Blake Griffin
If Taiwan didn't appear just as injury-prone as DMac ...
I’d might go along w/that line of thinking. But I really don’t want us stuck w/o any speedy backs. I think the spell we’ve had here w/o one has really hurt us down the stretch of the season.
Strong, elusive backs who will regularly throughout the season stiff-arm a safety, put him on the ground, and then take it to the house like Dmac w/their breakaway speed do NOT grow on trees, and they are serious game-changers when they are healthy. DC’s have to prepare differently when there’s a guy like McFadden on the field for the opposition.
It’d be real tough for me to go along with trading a guy like DMac away unless we had someone at least remotely comparable (and more durable) waiting in the wings to fill his role. ATM, we most certainly do not have such a player.
by Brett J Valjalo on Dec 27, 2011 1:02 PM PST up reply actions
Thats pretty much my opinion too
However I am ALL about drafting Monty Ball and if we could get him then i MIGHT be more comfortable with the idea. I still am not on board with trading DMC though.
"We want to win. The Raider fans deserve it. The Raider players deserve it, even my organization deserves it. You have to win and you have to win with a vision for the Super Bowl. That's our passion here."--Al Davis
"Winning isn't everything, but wanting to win is."--Vince Lombardi
by Marcus Allen Krause on Dec 27, 2011 1:17 PM PST up reply actions
I don’t think either will be back.
I wouldn’t mind keeping Bush, or Campbell, but it may be best to let them go. Clear up some room and sign a defensive playmaker.
Don’t trade McFadden. He’s too rare of a player to get rid off. He’s only 24, and when he’s healthy he is our offense. It’d be ludicrous to just trade him away.
As much as I would like to dream, I'm afraid the Raiders will let them both go for the same reasons that Zach and Namndi left.
They will cost too much, and actually, the qb position is more expensive, and I believe it will cost more to keep JC than Bush. By the way, heard any good blues tunes lately, JaKe?
by RaiderPsycho on Dec 27, 2011 8:39 PM PST up reply actions
I think it will come down to what teams are reaching out to either…and can we pay what the asking price is…love AL but we all know he over pays players…so I hope that we can re-work some contracts…that I’m sure can be done…really I think a full off season with Palmer along with Pryor will be huge…only Hue really knows what he has in Pryor…so time will tell…really I’m looking at the Defence…and what are we going to do there…I’m really hoping that we move to a 3-4 and work on getting a NT…I think we can sign a RB in the off season if it’s not Bush…I like Bush but it comes down to how much money another team is going to pay…like this year no way could we afford to pay what the sea chickens payed Miller…so if this is the same thing then we have to let Bush go and pick up someone in FA…love Bush but he has no break away speed what-so-ever…
you know if you traded DMC......
hed have a monster year, not get hurt, and shove it down our throats. Kinda like Mossasshole.
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