Raiders Passer Rating Differentials since 2000

by Marcus Allen Krause on Jul 8, 2011 2:07 PM PDT

I was reading an article on SI.com by Kerry J. Byrne about Passer Rating Differential. Although this article is based on the Green Bay Packers, even the biggest hater of the Packers would probably find it interesting. Mr. Byrne has thoroughly convinced me that Passer Rating Differential (PRD) is a very important stat in the NFL. PRD is when you take your seasons average Passer Rating for the year and you subtract your opponents average passer rating for the year.

For example: 2010 Raiders average QB rating was 77.5 and our opponents average QB rating against us was 85.6. Therefore we take 77.5 and subtract 85.6 which equals -8.1. Therefore, the PRD was -8.1. That isn't that horrible but we do NOT want our opponents having a better passer rating against us than our QB had against them.

After reading the above article and having been convinced of the importance of this stat, I decided I wanted to find out what the Raiders stats have looked like since 2000. I figured it would be a good way to pass the time. I also figured that it would not look good in the years after we lost the SB to Gruden in the 2002 season. I was correct in both assumptions.

Check out the PRD stats over this past decade and the season's record for that season after the jump....

Season OAK Opp PRD Record

2010 ~ 77.5 - 85.6 = -8.1 (8-8)
2009 ~ 62.0 - 89.5 = -27.5 (5-11)
2008 ~ 71.6 - 79.3 = -7.7 (5-11)
2007 ~ 70.9 - 78.9 = -8 (4-12)
2006 ~ 56.2 - 74.1 = -17.9 (2-14)
2005 ~ 76.0 - 90.7 = -24.7 (4-12)
2004 ~ 76.1 - 99.4 = -23.3 (5-11)
2003 ~ 65.0 - 87.3 = -22.3 (4-12)
2002 ~ 97.2 - 77.3 = +19.9 (11-5) *Super Bowl
2001 ~ 95.5 - 70.5 = +25 (10-6) *Playoffs
2000 ~ 92.0 - 80.4 = +11.6 (12-4) *Playoffs

There are some interesting things that I have noticed out of this. First off, our worst Differential rating (09) was not during our worst year (06). Second, our worst year record wise was during our worst year for our own QB rating. Also, our worst year was the year before Jamarcus Russell. That for those of us that remember, is a season that we really wish that we did not remember! Sad that we went through a season with that much ineptitude at the QB position, just to be delivered into the worst draft selection of all time in Jamarcus. We should all take a moment to slap ourselves on the back for surviving those times!

Another thing that I noticed was that our best year was not our last Super Bowl. That does not surprise me much because at that time our team was still fresh from Jon Gruden's teachings but he had already moved on. Our best year in this stat should be with our best coach. Our best coach was Gruden. Look at the ridiculous drop in both QB rating and PRD from 02 to 03 after Gruden demolished Callahan in the super bowl. From 97.2 in our QB rating to 65.0 and from a PRD of positive 19.9 to one of our worst years at PRD of negative 22.3. I can not describe how much I despise Bill "I was just scratching my neck" Callahan. I will not even try to go into that here but instead show the coaches PRD averages for the coaches that we have had since 1998:

Tom Cable (08-2010) ~ -14.3
Lane Kiffin (07) ~ -8.0
Art Shell (06) ~ -17.9
Norv Turner (04-05) ~ -24
Bill Callahan (02-03) ~ -2.4
Jon Gruden (98-2001) ~ +10.6

(I will note that I included the 08 total in Tom Cable's stats because he was there for more of the season. I apologize for that because it does make the stats a little skewed for Lane and Tom. However, I did not go through each individual game's QB rating because the site I used, Pro-Football-Reference.com, did not have the QB ratings for each game.)

First off, I really wish that Jon Gruden and Al Davis could have worked things out. He is the only coach on this list with a positive average for Passing Rating Differential. That is just one of the MANY reasons that Jon Gruden has been the best coach in my lifetime (since 85) for the Raiders. Bill Callahan also has a good PRD rating, but I am bias against him. Therefore, in my opinion, his success in this category in 02 was an anomaly that can really be credited to the players performing well and Jon Gruden's influence on the team. The giant fall from 02 to 03 in PRD is my basis for that opinion and I think shows Callahan's true coaching ability.

The other thing I noticed was the increase in PRD from 09-2010 during Tom Cable's tenure. I attribute this to Hue Jackson coming aboard and the abandoning of Jamarcus Russell. Tom Cable also helped this with his player friendly attitude but I just feel like the improvement in our offense was directly related to the arrival of Hue Jackson. Hopefully, if I am right on that, we will see an additional increase this year in that stat. If not I will have to give Tom Cable more credit than I currently am, but I do not anticipate having to do that.

Now to show the effect of PRD across the rest of the league more accurately I am posting some charts that I found on coldhardfootballfacts.com. This better shows the relation between a teams success and their PRD:

Final 2010 Passer Rating Differential

	Team	Off. PR	Def. PR	Net
1	Green Bay	98.93	67.23	+31.7
2	New England	109.76	81.23	+28.53
3	San Diego	101.85	76.14	+25.71
4	Pittsburgh	95.25	73.78	+21.47
5	Tampa Bay	96.25	77.57	+18.68
6	Baltimore	93.64	76.34	+17.3
7	Kansas City	90.06	78.08	+11.98
8	Philadelphia	92.06	80.61	+11.45
9	Atlanta	90.80	82.19	+8.61
10	New Orleans	90.81	83.16	+7.65
11	Chicago	79.49	74.39	+5.1
12	N.Y. Giants	85.28	80.53	+4.75
13	Indianapolis	91.79	91.7	+0.09
14	N.Y. Jets	76.53	77.05	-0.52
15	Dallas	90.39	92.75	-2.36
16	Cincinnati	82.37	85.16	-2.79
17	St. Louis	76.46	80.22	-3.76
18	Tennessee	82.59	86.38	-3.8
19	Denver	86.75	93.02	-6.27
20	Detroit	82.00	89.17	-7.16
21	*Oakland*	*77.4*	*85.56*	*-8.15*
22	Houston	92.02	100.49	-8.48
23	Miami	75.5	85.03	-9.53
24	Cleveland	74.98	84.83	-9.85
25	San Francisco	79.36	89.96	-10.6
26	Washington	77.99	89.62	-11.63
27	Jacksonville	83.43	98.53	-15.11
28	Buffalo	75.16	92.58	-17.41
29	Seattle	72.04	89.69	-17.65
30	Minnesota	67.65	86.39	-18.74
31	Arizona	60.49	83.55	-23.06
32	Carolina	56.96	80.96	-23.99

Final 2009 Passer Rating Differential

	Team	Off. PR	Def. PR	Net
1	New Orleans	106.02	68.58	+37.44
2	Green Bay	101.78	68.83	+32.95
3	San Diego	103.13	84.24	+18.89
4	Baltimore	87.35	71.95	+15.41
5	Indianapolis	95.43	80.64	+14.80
6	Minnesota	107.25	92.52	+14.73
7	Pittsburgh	98.13	83.45	+14.68
8	Philadelphia	92.05	77.64	+14.40
9	Dallas	97.56	83.48	+14.08
10	New England	95.55	81.82	+13.73
11	Arizona	89.65	76.41	+13.24
12	Houston	96.26	83.24	+13.02
13	Buffalo	71.71	61.15	+10.56
14	Denver	84.41	74.98	+9.43
15	Cincinnati	82.74	73.58	+9.16
16	San Francisco	80.78	76.24	+4.54
17	N.Y. Jets	62.2	58.84	+3.37
18	Washington	85.55	85.72	-0.17
19	Carolina	70.45	71.69	-1.24
20	N.Y. Giants	93.15	95.14	-1.99
21	Atlanta	80.42	89.47	-9.05
22	Jacksonville	83.16	95.98	-12.82
23	Miami	73.31	86.92	-13.61
24	Kansas City	70.85	87.09	-16.23
25	Tennessee	74.89	91.19	-16.29
26	Chicago	75.63	92.27	-16.65
27	Seattle	76.73	93.43	-16.69
28	Tampa Bay	59.83	87.18	-27.35
29	*Oakland*	*62.01*	*89.72*	*-27.71*
30	St. Louis	63.91	96.9	-32.99
31	Cleveland	55.84	90.56	-34.72
32	Detroit	58.14	107.58	-49.43

I would like to point out that each of the last two years that the top team in PRD won the super bowl. Also, the bottom team each year had the worst record. I can see a direct correlation between PRD and a successfull season. Also, a neat stat that Byrne mentions is that 56% (40-71) of the champions of the last 71 years were ranked 1st or 2nd in PRD. I think I have taken up enough of your time. Lets hope Hue Jackson takes this stat seriously, and lets hope we see a dramatic increase in it as well. A 21st ranking in any important category, which was our 2010 PRD, will not be good enough for our Hue Jackson lead 2011 Oakland Raiders.

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Comments

This is an interesting post. Even with an exceptional rushing offense we need JC's passing % to break into the 90's

that would certainly take care of getting that magic “33” minutes time of possession.

S-O-B: ITS HOW I ROLL, DEAL WITH IT.
"I made a trade for Seymour. ..I thought it was a great trade. Still do. [Al Davis 1/2011]
Patience advances a man to better times.

by Sons-of-Blanda on Jul 8, 2011 2:52 PM PDT reply actions

Exactly! We need JC to be more efficient. If we can get him into the 90s in QB rating along with stuffing it down everybodys throat with the run game we will definitely reach that 33 minute mark.

"We want to win. The Raider fans deserve it. The Raider players deserve it, even my organization deserves it. You have to win and you have to win with a vision for the Super Bowl. That's our passion here."--Al Davis

"Winning isn't everything, but wanting to win is."--Vince Lombardi

by Marcus Allen Krause on Jul 8, 2011 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions

this is cool stufff

id really like to see the last 15 or 20 years even to see if this is a consistent trend.

but im a lil worried about the inconsistencies of the schedule that would maybe distort the results a lil one way or the other. some teams have easier schedules than others. that’s inevitable with only a 16 game schedule. i wish there was some way to adjust for that..

Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!

by naq92 on Jul 8, 2011 3:32 PM PDT reply actions

excellent point. the link on the pro-football-reference actually does have season stats back to the 70s so u could do the math on those years too

They also had strength of schedule so maybe we could multiply it by that to get a number that would incorporate the teams they played

"Winning isn't everything, but wanting to win is."--Vince Lombardi

by Marcus Allen Krause on Jul 8, 2011 3:48 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions

good stuff

ill have to get on that when i find some time…

Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!

by naq92 on Jul 8, 2011 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions

Nice post. I'll bet you can see the trend where this league became a passing-centric league emerge in those figures

and it shows how important today’s passing and qb driven league, wherein its majority passes to set up the run—opposite of what we do in Oakland—has become to make a winning team. It’s also created a premium on pass rushers.

Interestingly enough, the stat for last year exposes our pass defense for not being as good as we think, or as stats and rankings would indicate, since we know our weakness was run, but the pass defense we laud allowed our opponents to consistently have 80-90 passer ratings.

Bottom line is, we have to get better passing, but keep the run first, run dominant offense, and take away opponents’ abilities to run, run, run all day on us. I suspect the pass rush will improve even more as guys gain chemistry and experience together, and hope we can keep the defensive backfield in tact enough to not notice a marked drop off in performance, especially on third downs and our weakness against TEs and FBs in the seams and in the second level of the defense. I think Woodson will bring some ball hawking to our d backs, and a little more killer instinct mentality there.

"tough times call for perseverance and a tough mind. I have been told that I can't play football before. We all know what happened with that. #neverquit"--Mark Herzlich

""The massive Raider Nation is beyond doubt the sleaziest and rudest and most sinister mob of thugs and wackos ever assembled."--Hunter S. Thompson

by brhynno on Jul 8, 2011 3:45 PM PDT reply actions

yep i agree. its not that we should pass more often its just that they need to be more efficient when we do!

"Winning isn't everything, but wanting to win is."--Vince Lombardi

by Marcus Allen Krause on Jul 8, 2011 3:51 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions

Correct

and consistently

"tough times call for perseverance and a tough mind. I have been told that I can't play football before. We all know what happened with that. #neverquit"--Mark Herzlich

""The massive Raider Nation is beyond doubt the sleaziest and rudest and most sinister mob of thugs and wackos ever assembled."--Hunter S. Thompson

by brhynno on Jul 8, 2011 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions

Very interesting post! Let’s hope we can improve!

by Harder2000 on Jul 8, 2011 5:17 PM PDT reply actions

Cool post, Marcus. Definitely something I’ll be looking at from now. It bugs me that Kansas was 7 though.

Bring me a shrubbery!

by JaKe. on Jul 8, 2011 9:26 PM PDT reply actions

yeah and SD being 3rd surprised me too

I like that we were so far down and still went 8-8. Gives me hope that we really will be a playoff team next year because I can only see us going up from where we were ranked there

"Winning isn't everything, but wanting to win is."--Vince Lombardi

by Marcus Allen Krause on Jul 8, 2011 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions

San Diego’s a really talented team, just no guts.

Bring me a shrubbery!

by JaKe. on Jul 19, 2011 7:39 PM PDT up reply actions

This unit is held back by injurys and poor training.

Sanjay Lal is a horrible WR coach. so bad, that Namndi took it upon himself to help DHB.
strength and conditioning coach Rod Martin is also inadequate and only on the staff because Al Davis likes his name.
We need a better WR coach like Missouri’s Andy Hill.
http://www.mutigers.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/hill_andy00.html

I will never recover from Al Davis saying, "I should never have fired Art Shell"

by RUKidding on Jul 9, 2011 5:32 AM PDT reply actions

The hamstring epidemic last season was unnaceptable - at one point seven (7) Raiders either missed the game(s) or

played hamstrung (Brad Jelly Roll?). Saint reversed on SanJay after meeting him, so perhaps Lal knows a lot and may be an enthusiastic teacher … but I’m still unconvinced of his effectiveness – the proof’s in the pudding.

S-O-B: ITS HOW I ROLL, DEAL WITH IT.
"I made a trade for Seymour. ..I thought it was a great trade. Still do. [Al Davis 1/2011]
Patience advances a man to better times.

by Sons-of-Blanda on Jul 9, 2011 8:06 AM PDT up reply actions

I will be calling for his head immediately if the pudding doesn't prove it right away this year

I said when he posted that I reluctantly took back some of what I said, but still wondered why the name Sanjay Lal has never once been the subject of conversation by any member of our receiver squad, ever.

and don’t get me started on Roll.

"tough times call for perseverance and a tough mind. I have been told that I can't play football before. We all know what happened with that. #neverquit"--Mark Herzlich

""The massive Raider Nation is beyond doubt the sleaziest and rudest and most sinister mob of thugs and wackos ever assembled."--Hunter S. Thompson

by brhynno on Jul 9, 2011 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions

Impressive resume:

especially here:

Kent Layman
    WR – Hon. Men. (1998)
Justin Gage
    WR – Hon. Men. (2000), 1st Team (2001, 2002)
Sean Coffey
    WR – Hon. Men. (2004), Hon. Men. (2005)
Will Franklin
    WR – Hon. Men. (2006, 2007)
Jared Perry
    WR – Hon. Men. Freshman All-American (2006)
Jeremy Maclin
    AP – Consensus 1st Team All-American (2007, 2008)
    WR – 1st Team Freshman All-American (2007)
    Big 12 Off. Freshman of the Year (2007) 1st Team (2007, 2008)
    Biletnikoff Finalist (2008)
Tommy Saunders
    WR – Hon. Men. (2008)
Danario Alexander
    WR – 1st-Team All-American (2009), 1st Team (2009)

"tough times call for perseverance and a tough mind. I have been told that I can't play football before. We all know what happened with that. #neverquit"--Mark Herzlich

""The massive Raider Nation is beyond doubt the sleaziest and rudest and most sinister mob of thugs and wackos ever assembled."--Hunter S. Thompson

by brhynno on Jul 9, 2011 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions

I know it has basically become a passing league

but PRD, while it is an interesting take, should not be taken too seriously imo. Teams change gameplans, and draft players that help counter what their opponents are doing now. So about 1-3 years down the road, people will get CBs more, pass rushers, then the league will go toward the interior defense because the running game will be utilized more.

Green Bay for example that won the super bowl last year. Has A LOT of sacks, and a great defense overall. The pass rush though, was there specialty with clay mathews pass rushing 75% of the time. And their two CBs in Woodson and that other guy whos name I forgot (the green bay page told me that he was very good as well, probably just as good as woodson). Their defense was built to stop the passing game, in the passing league we are in.

In contrast to their RUSHING defense was 18th in the league going of of rushing yards (about 115 rushing yards a game). So this looks like their defense is more built for passing than rushing.

For the Saints in the previous superbowl, they were #1 in turnovers, #1 in INTs, and #1 in INTs for TDs (thanks to darren sharper). Their DE is really god too(forgot the name… damn!!!). And vilma is the perfect coverage MLB for them. One of the best.

The stat I want to look at only is points. Last year, the raiders had quite a few games with over 30 points, and compared to the year before year which was like an average of 14 points or something, there is a huge difference. And that is contributed through our team performance. It takes a TEAM to score points.

What Im saying is, is that this will change in a couple years. The teams will prepare their defense for the pass, because its a passing league now. Score fast. Then Im willing to bet that Running game will come back.

I wouldn’t exactly worry about our PRD, because we are not a passing team. Period. We use to keep the defense honest, and to compliment our beastly running game. Thats it. What we need to do is play to our strengths on offense (running game and creating mismatches), and create a mean, pass rushing defense to keep the passing offenses at bay (we were #1 or #2 in sacks last year, and all we need is a good, consistent secondary. We also need to keep the running game at bay, so our OLBs are key next year).

We were #11 overall on defense last year(I predicted them being in the top 10, but 11 is very good), and we just need to build on that even more, which I have full confidence in.

We are 1-3 years away from being playoff caliber. As long as we stick to our strengths, while slightly improving our weaknesses, we PRD probably won’t matter as much as we think. =/

I’ll take 11 players with heart on the field over 11 guys with just talent. Talent is fleeting, it goes away over time. Heart is what drives you to be better. To push yourself beyond what you think your capabilities are. To show us that when you strive, all things are possible.- SMP

by Jack'sAxe on Jul 10, 2011 5:30 PM PDT reply actions

prd isnt only important to passing teams though

Just because we don’t pass often doesn’t mean it doesn’t apply to us. It still does because we need our passing to be more efficient than we have been. If we only pass 15 times a game we should be able to be efficient enough to have a 90 qb rating. If we were able to have our qb average 90 points per game I’d be willing to be that’d be higher than our opponents and allow us to move the ball better. As sob said if we had the ball for atleast 33 minutes we won, so with better qb play the more wins we would likely get. Also I am willing to be if u look at the 30+ point games last year our qb rating will be better than our opponents was during those games.

"Winning isn't everything, but wanting to win is."--Vince Lombardi

by Marcus Allen Krause on Jul 10, 2011 6:31 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions

bet*

"Winning isn't everything, but wanting to win is."--Vince Lombardi

by Marcus Allen Krause on Jul 10, 2011 6:32 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions

Having a higher time of possession does not secure a win. you can just still get field goals, and the other team can get Touchdowns.

Im saying its not as important to us. For passing teams, like the chargers, it is important. for the pats its important. For the raiders? Not as important, because we are a running team.

What we need to be efficient is scoring TDs, and getting turnovers. In regards to passing, we just need to be good in passing, not above average like Green Bay and the Saints. Just good, because we have a very good running game that we utilize, as well as mis-matches through our west coast style offense.

As for the 30+ points in games… im pretty sure that McFadden was also a beast in those games as well: http://www.nfl.com/teams/oaklandraiders/schedule?team=OAK&season=2010&seasonType=REG

well to be fair… our running game in general. And this is what I said above:

It takes a TEAM to score points.

Not just passing. We are not a passing team, but we need to pass just well for mcfadden and co. to run all over the defense and make them tired. I am saying that the PRD should not apply to us as much as the actual PASSING teams in the league, because they rely on the passing game to win. We just rely on consistency(pass complements are run, run complements our pass) in our offense, instead of an all out passing attack(where they rely on the passing game to win games) such as green bay and the saints.

by Jack'sAxe on Jul 10, 2011 7:32 PM PDT up reply actions

I agree with what your saying on that it isnt as important to a running team but at the same time im not willing to write it off as inconsequential

     I want them to be more than just sufficient in the passing game. I want them to be DANGEROUS with the passing game. I want those deep passes to be on target and caught at a more frequent consistency and I want less interceptions and missed long 3rd downs. Doing that creates a higher QB rating. Our passing game needs to be better, even if we are a running team. I believe our pass defense will be able to do its job, its our pass offense that I want to surprise teams.
       We will dominate with the run but part of dominating with the run is being able to capitalize on the defense having to stack the box. I look at Pittsburgh and I want to be able to make the down the field plays that they do and I want our passing game to need to be respected too. Just because Running is going to be our bread and better doesnt mean that its ok to be one dimensional and just do enough to get by. I believe we can dominate in the passing game during the few times that we decide to pass. If we can have a high QB rating during the times that we do pass it opens up the run game more. We need more than to just beat at the bush to keep them honest, we want them to be scared about whatever we are going to do next.
       As for the time of possession, It doesn’t “secure” a win, but it certainly is an area that you want to be ahead on. I mentioned SoB because his post said that every time we kept the ball that 33 minutes or more, we won. That is not a fluke. No individual stat can secure the win on its own man in the end you still need to score the points. Having your team on the field beating on their defense for more time keeps their defense tired and your defense gets more rest. That definitely plays a major role in winning and is one of the number one things that coaches want their players to do. Control the clock and you control the game.

"Winning isn't everything, but wanting to win is."--Vince Lombardi

by Marcus Allen Krause on Jul 10, 2011 8:47 PM PDT up reply actions

first of all, we won when we got 33 minutes or more is because we ran all over them, and produced TOUCHDOWNS.

I sum up some things by the end, so before you read one paragraph, than retort, please read the entire thing first. :)

We can get a Tounchdowns with 25 minutes of possession, or 40. as long as we get TDs, TOP wont matter. that is my point on that. Score more than the opponent though, and you win. Get Turnovers, and you win.

And hey, i want our passing game to respected too. But you are accidentally agreeing with me. lol

Im not saying to completely disregard PRD, Im just saying we shouldnt take it as seriously.

1) PRD matters the most now because it has turned into a passing league.

2) We are not a passing team, we are a running team. But let me build on this to make it clearer.

I WANT to be respected in the passing game BUT, all we need to do is jst be GOOD in the passing game. Not great like the Green Bay or New England.

We just need to be good. Keep them honest, and prevent turning the ball over. Thats why it doesnt matter to us as much, because its just a small cog in our rushing offense.

Do I want us to be multi dimensional, in both being a great passing and running team? Absolutely but thats not the case RIGHT NOW. Right now, we have an okay passing game, that can be good. But thats all we really need it to be in the end.

so just a small recap:

Our passing game should set up our beastly run. Our offense does not rely on the passing game to win games. it relys on controlling the ball, and running out the clock while getting TDs.

As long as our offense prevents turning the ball over, and our top 10 defense takes care of things, we will likely win.

I know you say that our passing will set up the run. that is true. but we dont need to be great at it. just good enough to keep them honest, and the main thing in order for that to work, is that we cant turn it over.

Both of these things just mean that PRD does no matter to us as much as the passing teams out there. because passing is not our strength. thats all im saying.

In my first post I also stated that in a few years down the road (i should have said it as this) that teams will be more running based because the defenses will be set up primarily for the pass.

by Jack'sAxe on Jul 12, 2011 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions

We scored 24 points or more

VS the texans,colts,cardinals,and jaguars, we lost those games, average TOP 29:22.

by RyanTheRaider on Jul 12, 2011 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions

okay...?

Are you saying we lost the game because of TOP? Like I said, TOP helps, but its the points that matters. Our defense has to prevent the other team from getting points too.

We should have won the arizona game, our defense had injuries facing the jags, our defense was not that great against the texans or the colts.

TOP helps, but it does determine who wins or who loses.

by Jack'sAxe on Jul 13, 2011 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions

This I can guarantee: we possess the ball for thirty-three or more minutes, therein, making the opposing defense stay on the field against us

they’re defense is completely ineffective in the fourth quarter, their pass rushers tired, and the defensive backs getting desperate. That’s exactly what you want. Fact is, run plays take longer than pass plays to produce points. Of course, you want to score more points than your opponent; some things are better left unsaid.

I think most of us agree with what you are saying; the old school ball control game was run heavy, possessed the clock, or at the very least controlled it, limited the amount of times your opponent possessed the ball to a predictable amount, so it could plan and scheme for all those times. It is a given, you expect your team to finish off drives with TDs. That said, a team built like ours has proven it can win games with Jano’s field goals, solid clock control, and defense fresh from sustained long drives. We don’t take the game to the next level, however, without adding the consistent pass element to the equation—one that scores quickly and efficiently, and prevents opponents from keying on our strength in running.

Next step: get a dominant O line to provide JC a pocket from which to perform the SHAPE duties, as highlighted by Saunders. I believe we are well on our way, but a key missing piece must be added to the equation first. We are far too young on the O line as is to expect playoff caliber performance, and will no doubt experience some gelling and growing pains with the new unit that ultimately emerges.

"tough times call for perseverance and a tough mind. I have been told that I can't play football before. We all know what happened with that. #neverquit"--Mark Herzlich

""The massive Raider Nation is beyond doubt the sleaziest and rudest and most sinister mob of thugs and wackos ever assembled."--Hunter S. Thompson

by brhynno on Jul 13, 2011 6:14 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

Well said.

and I’ll just add that if Grad doesn’t recover to 100% or isn’t going to be on the roster, we must bring in a veteran – not a young pup. I know many want someone young to groom and some of these misguided souls may even argue that a veteran QB would adversely affect Jason’s delicate psyche. These ideas should not even be in their heads so it’s especially shameful when these creatures publish them.

S-O-B: ITS HOW I ROLL, DEAL WITH IT.
"I made a trade for Seymour. ..I thought it was a great trade. Still do. [Al Davis 1/2011]
Patience advances a man to better times.

by Sons-of-Blanda on Jul 14, 2011 5:10 PM PDT up reply actions

I have to believe most gms and experts around the league, and here at sbp, agree

it has been almost an afterthought with me, since I’ve been preoccupied with the O line as usual, and the other larger priority questions to be addressed when the nose hits the grindstone in free agency.

"tough times call for perseverance and a tough mind. I have been told that I can't play football before. We all know what happened with that. #neverquit"--Mark Herzlich

""The massive Raider Nation is beyond doubt the sleaziest and rudest and most sinister mob of thugs and wackos ever assembled."--Hunter S. Thompson

by brhynno on Jul 14, 2011 6:13 PM PDT up reply actions

hm... you do have a point about tiring their defense out.

and i should also say that our defense would get more rest as well. TOP helps out a lot I should say then(which is more than i said of it before). It sonly part of winning games like the other elements i guess. just hope that those long drives end up with a good result, but that is also a given. lol

and scoring more points than the opponent…. well yeah its better left unsaid, but i was not talking about that. I was talking about the idea of how much the stat of points can change you perspective on a defense and offense. But yeah, TOP is more important than i though, but to me, the idea of stat points and what they represent, is the most important thing when i look at other teams.

by Jack'sAxe on Jul 15, 2011 8:03 AM PDT up reply actions

wow! ive seen you argue against ToP so many times i am shocked rght now! lol

That’s all I was trying to say about TOP too. Its an important component to winning, not that it wins itself. I agree with you that the only state that wins the game by itself is winning in the points stats. I respect that you were willing to give TOP some relevance after venomously refuting it! True intelligence is being able to see somebody else’s point when it contradicts yours. Admitting it has more importance than u originally thought does just that. Nobody wanted you to admit it is the number one stat, just that it can be important.

"Winning isn't everything, but wanting to win is."--Vince Lombardi

by Marcus Allen Krause on Jul 15, 2011 10:50 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions

lol I like it when people prove me wrong. It means that I have learned something new.

I am not a….. whatchamacallit…. ignorant. When I am proven wrong, to any degree, I will admit it. :) I am not that kind of selfish person.

You were right about it being important factor. I just don’t find it useful unless you get points out of it, but its useful enough to get the defense tired, and our getting some rest. :)

by Jack'sAxe on Jul 15, 2011 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions

Definitely can be misleading at times if the points dont come with it though, but overall still important.

we both take a step in the other’s direction without completely disregarding our original opinions. I think thats called a compromise lol

"Winning isn't everything, but wanting to win is."--Vince Lombardi

by Marcus Allen Krause on Jul 15, 2011 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions

lol I suppose.

by Jack'sAxe on Jul 15, 2011 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions

You are a good man, P...

for a Pat’s fan! lol. jk bro. I have always appreciated your passion. I had trouble understanding the dual AFC identity, but have come to know you are a true fan of both teams, whether I can ever fully understand it or not. We appreciate your presence here, and we are better because of it.

"tough times call for perseverance and a tough mind. I have been told that I can't play football before. We all know what happened with that. #neverquit"--Mark Herzlich

""The massive Raider Nation is beyond doubt the sleaziest and rudest and most sinister mob of thugs and wackos ever assembled."--Hunter S. Thompson

by brhynno on Jul 18, 2011 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions

I have been arguing on pats pulpit

about why Al Davis is a good GM. We already agreed to disagree, and despite me saying Al has reasons firing the coaches, they just dont get it. lol

Ah well. amazing what the media can do to us…..

by Jack'sAxe on Jul 18, 2011 8:45 PM PDT up reply actions

Thats thin ice there. At least half the Nation believes he's horrible. I continue to be amazed...

The thing that can’t be disputed, is that when people say he’s incapable of being a GM, there are always at least a half dozen guys on whom the jury is still out. I remember the same things being said about Nnamdi Asomugha, Darren McFadden, Stanford Routt…

Time is always on his side.

"tough times call for perseverance and a tough mind. I have been told that I can't play football before. We all know what happened with that. #neverquit"--Mark Herzlich

""The massive Raider Nation is beyond doubt the sleaziest and rudest and most sinister mob of thugs and wackos ever assembled."--Hunter S. Thompson

by brhynno on Jul 18, 2011 10:45 PM PDT up reply actions

As for the coaches, we'll never know if keeping any of those coaches would've resulted differently

so that’s spilled milk we Raiders won’t cry over.

"tough times call for perseverance and a tough mind. I have been told that I can't play football before. We all know what happened with that. #neverquit"--Mark Herzlich

""The massive Raider Nation is beyond doubt the sleaziest and rudest and most sinister mob of thugs and wackos ever assembled."--Hunter S. Thompson

by brhynno on Jul 18, 2011 10:47 PM PDT up reply actions

right right.

I think Al is a good GM. not great, but just good. He makes mistakes like everyone else imo, and he is a pretty good drafter as far as I know.

but thats something that doesnt need to be debated again. SOme say he is horrible, some say he is not. As long as we win I could care less in the end.

by Jack'sAxe on Jul 19, 2011 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions

This

As long as we win I could care less in the end.

you are wise beyond your years, JA!

"tough times call for perseverance and a tough mind. I have been told that I can't play football before. We all know what happened with that. #neverquit"--Mark Herzlich

""The massive Raider Nation is beyond doubt the sleaziest and rudest and most sinister mob of thugs and wackos ever assembled."--Hunter S. Thompson

by brhynno on Jul 19, 2011 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions

I know i was agreeing with you that wasnt as important to us, it wasnt accidental

Even when the league is more based on run the QB rating will still be part of the story imo. No matter what somebodys qb is going to be playing then the other teams. I think it seems to come down to having a different idea of what we are capable of right now this season Jack. I just have more faith in Campbell than you do, maybe? I just think we can be great in the passing game too now. I think Hue having full control to do whatever in his mind he wants to do with the offense will allow him to put plays together that will fit Campbell better than anybody has as of yet and he will flourish. Wishful thinking probably but i think thats why we disagree.
As for the TOP conversation, I respect your opinion and just look at it differently. I dont think we should have to score 30 points a game to win, I want to be able to win the 10-7 games and the 6-3 games and I believe a big part of that is TOP. Again just my opinion just as you have yours. It is by absolutely no means something that guarantees victories and teams lose all the time while having the greater TOP but I am more than willing to bet that more teams won when they had TOP than they have lost. I just cant go over to your side of thinking that it doesnt translate into victories.
We do agree the only stat that matters in the end is Points. Thats pretty simple though, dont you think? Everybody should know that points is the most important stat but the fact that it is so obvious is why it is generally understood that it is left out of the conversation. Even if somebody says something is the most important stat, I think it should be assumed they are talking about AFTER points since that is the only way you can win. Arguing that Points are more important than PRD or TOP is redundant because it is already understood points are more important than any other stat in any sport where you win by scoring.

"Winning isn't everything, but wanting to win is."--Vince Lombardi

by Marcus Allen Krause on Jul 12, 2011 8:56 PM PDT up reply actions

I think we have very good potential in the passing game.

Just as of now, I think its good. not great, just good, which is all we need it to be really imo.

for TOP, Im saying that it wont guarantee the victory. What I want is points. Score more points than the other guy, and have the defense do its part. now..

the stats I look at is points for, and points against per game. I know you say its redundant and I agree with you.

But the only reason I say it is because TOP, and most stats out there, can be misleading and skewed. Its great that you can get the ball most of the game, but if your only scoring field goals in the end, and the other team is getting TDs, we lose.

Thats why I honestly dont care too much for TOP. People will tell you you are ranked 32nd in this, or 24th in that, but if your 10th in points for, and/or against, all those other stats virtually dont mean squat. they just support the overall picture that points is the main cog of.

by Jack'sAxe on Jul 13, 2011 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions

Points don't guarantee victory either, e.g. Arizona vs GB in 2009.

But, you’re in one of your entrenched moods and will continue beating the expired horse

S-O-B: ITS HOW I ROLL, DEAL WITH IT.
"I made a trade for Seymour. ..I thought it was a great trade. Still do. [Al Davis 1/2011]
Patience advances a man to better times.

by Sons-of-Blanda on Jul 13, 2011 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions

i have no idea what your talking about. lol

and points do guarantee a victory or defeat. I cant remember that game, but its clear that the team who won the game, scored when it mattered (obviously). Again, TOP is a good thing to have, but useless if you dont get TDs. thats my point.

by Jack'sAxe on Jul 13, 2011 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions

I should say useless if you dont score enough points...

by Jack'sAxe on Jul 13, 2011 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions

I want to be able to win games 10-0, 7-0, 3-0; I loooooove to shut down opposing offenses.

but, hey, I’m a defensive kinda guy… I’m not expecting to see that with Hue Jackson and Al Saunders and the construction of this bully dude coming to town.

"tough times call for perseverance and a tough mind. I have been told that I can't play football before. We all know what happened with that. #neverquit"--Mark Herzlich

""The massive Raider Nation is beyond doubt the sleaziest and rudest and most sinister mob of thugs and wackos ever assembled."--Hunter S. Thompson

by brhynno on Jul 14, 2011 6:17 PM PDT up reply actions

im more of an even kind of guy. I like all 3(including special teams) facets of the game. :)

by Jack'sAxe on Jul 15, 2011 8:05 AM PDT up reply actions

the TOP is an even more important factor for running teams

especially if you’re playing opponents that are dangerous passing, in that they can score in a heartbeat, and render a two score lead zero just as quickly. Being only strong in the run game makes you ultimately one dimensional, and you won’t be able to run it down every team’s throat. This stat is equally as important to run first teams, now a dying breed in this league to the pass to set up the run teams like your Pats, the Packers, the Colts, etc.

Defenses are definitely answering this call by stacking up pass rushers and increasing the importance of the position, but it will take longer than a few years for it to come back full circle.

"tough times call for perseverance and a tough mind. I have been told that I can't play football before. We all know what happened with that. #neverquit"--Mark Herzlich

""The massive Raider Nation is beyond doubt the sleaziest and rudest and most sinister mob of thugs and wackos ever assembled."--Hunter S. Thompson

by brhynno on Jul 12, 2011 8:58 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

especially if you’re playing opponents that are dangerous passing, in that they can score in a heartbeat, and render a two score lead zero just as quickly. Being only strong in the run game makes you ultimately one dimensional, and you won’t be able to run it down every team’s throat. This stat is equally as important to run first teams, now a dying breed in this league to the pass to set up the run teams like your Pats, the Packers, the Colts, etc.

okay.. need to break this down…

the TOP is an even more important factor for running teams
especially if you’re playing opponents that are dangerous passing, in that they can score in a heartbeat, and render a two score lead zero just as quickly.

okay.. need to break this down…

the TOP is an even more important factor for running teams
especially if you’re playing opponents that are dangerous passing, in that they can score in a heartbeat, and render a two score lead zero just as quickly.

Not true. You can run all day, and get TOP, but if that opponent scores quickly, like TDs, and you run all day but end up short, and have to kick the field goal. you lose. But hey, you have a great TOP.

okay.. need to break this down…

the TOP is an even more important factor for running teams
especially if you’re playing opponents that are dangerous passing, in that they can score in a heartbeat, and render a two score lead zero just as quickly.

Being only strong in the run game makes you ultimately one dimensional, and you won’t be able to run it down every team’s throat. This stat is equally as important to run first teams, now a dying breed in this league to the pass to set up the run teams like your Pats, the Packers, the Colts, etc.

okay.. need to break this down…

the TOP is an even more important factor for running teams
especially if you’re playing opponents that are dangerous passing, in that they can score in a heartbeat, and render a two score lead zero just as quickly.

Being only strong in the run game makes you ultimately one dimensional, and you won’t be able to run it down every team’s throat. This stat is equally as important to run first teams, now a dying breed in this league to the pass to set up the run teams like your Pats, the Packers, the Colts, etc.

okay.. need to break this down…

the TOP is an even more important factor for running teams
especially if you’re playing opponents that are dangerous passing, in that they can score in a heartbeat, and render a two score lead zero just as quickly.

Being only strong in the run game makes you ultimately one dimensional, and you won’t be able to run it down every team’s throat. This stat is equally as important to run first teams, now a dying breed in this league to the pass to set up the run teams like your Pats, the Packers, the Colts, etc.

okay.. need to break this down…

the TOP is an even more important factor for running teams
especially if you’re playing opponents that are dangerous passing, in that they can score in a heartbeat, and render a two score lead zero just as quickly.

Being only strong in the run game makes you ultimately one dimensional, and you won’t be able to run it down every team’s throat. This stat is equally as important to run first teams, now a dying breed in this league to the pass to set up the run teams like your Pats, the Packers, the Colts, etc.

Im not saying to take the passing game out completely. All im saying is we just need our pssing game to be good, and not turn the ball over. That is it. Remember all those turnovers in the beginning of the year? We just have to not do that as much.I also would want the defense to get more turnovers, but thats a different note.You may be right that it might take more than a few years, but i think it will take about….2-4 years. maybe 3-4. Because there ARE pass rushers out there, and DL are getting bigger, and more athletic. not to mention teams will most likely get pass rushing guys the most to counter the pass happy teams, or get very good CBs(a good CB crop last year if I so may add). Like the pats, they drafted CBs two years in a row, and they have a starting CB coming back from injury. Thats 3 very capable CBs on the roster that can line up and stop them pass happy teams.

okay.. need to break this down…

the TOP is an even more important factor for running teams
especially if you’re playing opponents that are dangerous passing, in that they can score in a heartbeat, and render a two score lead zero just as quickly.

Being only strong in the run game makes you ultimately one dimensional, and you won’t be able to run it down every team’s throat. This stat is equally as important to run first teams, now a dying breed in this league to the pass to set up the run teams like your Pats, the Packers, the Colts, etc.

by Jack'sAxe on Jul 13, 2011 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions

what the........ 0.o

by Jack'sAxe on Jul 13, 2011 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions

we definitely need to be better in the red zone and scoring in general

"tough times call for perseverance and a tough mind. I have been told that I can't play football before. We all know what happened with that. #neverquit"--Mark Herzlich

""The massive Raider Nation is beyond doubt the sleaziest and rudest and most sinister mob of thugs and wackos ever assembled."--Hunter S. Thompson

by brhynno on Jul 12, 2011 8:59 PM PDT up reply actions

Thats for sure, thats why I hope we sign Plaxico. A 6'5 possesion WR in the red zone would be very helpful in scoring more points.

"Winning isn't everything, but wanting to win is."--Vince Lombardi

by Marcus Allen Krause on Jul 12, 2011 9:01 PM PDT up reply actions

I've wondered what we would look like with a possession receiver on the field consistently

to catch the ball along with our top receiver Zach Miller and the second best in FB Marcel Reece.

"tough times call for perseverance and a tough mind. I have been told that I can't play football before. We all know what happened with that. #neverquit"--Mark Herzlich

""The massive Raider Nation is beyond doubt the sleaziest and rudest and most sinister mob of thugs and wackos ever assembled."--Hunter S. Thompson

by brhynno on Jul 12, 2011 9:16 PM PDT up reply actions

(crosses finger for schilens)

But I do like Denarius moore. :)

by Jack'sAxe on Jul 13, 2011 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions

I have great expectations for Denarius. I think he might be the second best pick this year to Wiz

but I also believe that Chekwa, DVD, Jones, and Ausberry will see some starting time at some point this year. These guys all bring very particular skill sets to the table, and will no doubt round out the bully we await anxiously.

"tough times call for perseverance and a tough mind. I have been told that I can't play football before. We all know what happened with that. #neverquit"--Mark Herzlich

""The massive Raider Nation is beyond doubt the sleaziest and rudest and most sinister mob of thugs and wackos ever assembled."--Hunter S. Thompson

by brhynno on Jul 13, 2011 5:08 PM PDT up reply actions

*better than

"Winning isn't everything, but wanting to win is."--Vince Lombardi

by Marcus Allen Krause on Jul 12, 2011 8:56 PM PDT reply actions

Great post

and excellent research. It goes to show that pass heavy offenses have taken over the NFL.

"We can't stop here... This is bat country."

by Kwester421 on Jul 14, 2011 10:56 PM PDT reply actions

From 2009 to 2010 Oakland got better in both Off. PR and Def. PR...

…If you lose Nnamdi Asomugha in Free Agency this year do you guys think you can improve again in the Def. RP stat…especially playing against SD (a very good passing team), Denver (Orton is ‘alright’), and KC (had Bowe and picked up Baldwin) 2 times each?

by DivineGrace on Jul 18, 2011 10:34 PM PDT reply actions

i do because our defense thrives on the defensive line more than the secondary.

We don’t give qbs very much time and that helps a great deal. It will hurt but we do have good young corners

"Winning isn't everything, but wanting to win is."--Vince Lombardi

by Marcus Allen Krause on Jul 19, 2011 12:48 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions

I fear there will be an adjustment period, however, that could get ugly

I have preferred we do not find out. Most media pundits around the league have us seeking a cb via free agency, amongst an almost definite lineman, and some say WR. I feel the organization likes the wideouts, and we could see an emergence with Jason coming into the most ideal situation he has yet in his career, coordinator, coach, and team wise. We still need to get some veteran leadership help for this very young O line.

"tough times call for perseverance and a tough mind. I have been told that I can't play football before. We all know what happened with that. #neverquit"--Mark Herzlich

""The massive Raider Nation is beyond doubt the sleaziest and rudest and most sinister mob of thugs and wackos ever assembled."--Hunter S. Thompson

by brhynno on Jul 19, 2011 8:41 PM PDT up reply actions

yeah i hope we dont have to find out

Antonio cromartie listed the raiders as a team he would want to play for if the moneys right but he would not be cheap. If were paying a boatload of money I want it to be to nnamdi. If not nnamdi than the Bengals Joseph, than Ike Taylor and Then cromartie. He just doesn’t seem like a good person so that’s why I’d be hesitant. Come on dude, u can’t even name ur 8 kids!

"Winning isn't everything, but wanting to win is."--Vince Lombardi

by Marcus Allen Krause on Jul 20, 2011 9:40 AM PDT up reply actions